Thoughts on closed Brand bidding groups

[ian-d]

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Just interested to know your feelings on brand bidding groups. A number of large merchants allow this via PPC, even though most run their own PPC too, this is in addition to a blanket ban on all other affiliates using trademark names and the same approach etc.

Is it time we see a stop to brand bidding groups, do they hold any value whatsoever to anyone but the merchant and affiliate(s) involved? I'm sure those involved in brand bidding groups will say they are great, I suspect some of them are high earning affiliates, but as I've found so far, most don't do much in the way of keyword research and tend to stick to the trademark names and obvious keywords...followed up by a fairly poor inaccurate landing page/site.

Maybe I'm missing something?

[wilwak]

I avoid working with merchants who allow Brand Bidding of any type. Brand bidders steal from genuine content affilaites who add genuine value.

Even worse is the small group of merchants who overwrite affiliate cookies with their own brand bidding campaigns.

[Hero]

as I've found so far, most don't do much in the way of keyword research and tend to stick to the trademark names and obvious keywords...followed up by a fairly poor inaccurate landing page/site.

I would argue that this is your view and it does not reflect reality. The vast majority of merchants who have closed groups are very on the ball and closely monitor their performance. The affiliates are given the brand BECAUSE they have very good generic performance - and they also are given targets on generics as well. The network also monitors the split of generics and brand. You will often find that the closed groups operate in programs with closed ppc policies.

As to your question, whether they add value - the merchant wants to have affiliates assisting with their ppc but don't want to have the hassle of dozens of ppc affiliates jumping in.

I appreciate that there is concern that the last referrer will be the brand bidder, but this is the nature of the game for the time being. These affiliates have earned certain privileges, same that some have higher commissions and therefore more money to play with, or some are given exclusive customer promotions etc. This is something EARNED, not given away for nothing. And is - usually - under frequent review.

[hpops]

Just to echo Hero's post really, as an agency we don't run any closed groups currently, but I can certainly see the benefits and would certainly consider it (although more favourably if the last cookie problem could be resolved satisfactorily).
From my network days, there is a great deal of work put in to putting together a group, monitoring its success and reviewing its makeup
From my affiliate days, we were chosen for several brand groups, and I can honestly say it was hard work getting them, harder work keeping them and I was glad to stop being part of it. The idea that its an easy option is kind of outdated, and very often wrong.

[ian-d]

Maybe that's the case these days, but looking at specific examples of brand bidding groups (won't name them as unfair on the affiliates and indicates the areas I work in!) I can see a number with PPC campaigns where large amounts of the information on the sites is either inaccurate, out of date, or against other merchant t&c's.

I'm just trying to gain an understanding of what benefit these groups offer to your average affiliate, not the network/merchant/affiliate involved. If brand bidding is against a merchants terms, then shouldn't it be the same across all affiliates, not favouring some? I appreciate that some convert massive commissions for merchants, but these must surely be based on other methods of promotion, not through success of a closed group bidding where using trademark terms is of course going to obtain clicks and conversion!

[Hero]

Ian, all I can advise you is to raise your concerns with the relevant merchant and account manager.

These groups are not static and definitely not status quo for the merchants - they can be changed.
As to your comment that "I appreciate that some convert massive commissions for merchants, but these must surely be based on other methods of promotion" - yes, as I've said before, they were using other methods, did well, and earned their carot.
The average affiliate benefits by knowing there is the possibility of this carot to reward them if they perform well, amongst other things

[wilwak]

At the end of the day merchants are free to do as they choose and as affiliates we either choose to work with them or not. The fact that I now avoid 'brand-bidding' merchants is my personal choice.

I take this stance because after working with one particular merchant for several years I found that the instant they suddenly allowed brand-bidding my conversion rate halfed.

I had a similar experience with another merchant who suddenly started bidding on their brand themselves and overwriting the affiliate cookie in the process. Coversions fell by 35%.

Unless we boycott such practices they will never change.

There's plenty of ethical merchants to choose from.

[mattb811]

There's plenty of ethical merchants to choose from.

I think the implication that brands operating BBG's are unethical is ludicrous and displays a naivety about how this works.

[wilwak]

I think the implication that brands operating BBG's are unethical is ludicrous and displays a naivety about how this works.

Well, I know the highly negative effect that Brand-Name-Bidding has on the earnings of other affiliates. Yes, I do consider it unethical especially when restricted to a 'select few' or when done by the merchant themselves.

I don't think it's me who's being 'niave' here and I think it's 'ludicrous' that you think I am.

The word 'blinkered' springs to mind.

[dougs]

BBG work and there are definite positives for a merchant, as the affiliate can fill in the gpas and protect the other ppc slots.

The issue I would think is if the merchants ppc brand bidding does not overwrite the affiliate cookie, but the affiliates brand bidding does overwrite the other affiliate cookies.

Can a network/agency explain what the process is?

Doug

[ian-d]

BBG work and there are definite positives for a merchant, as the affiliate can fill in the gpas and protect the other ppc slots.

I absolutely agree with you there, the benefits to the merchant are massive, especially as you say on filling ppc slots whilst preventing anyone else using the trademark term in any other way than the merchant wants...my concern is how this reflects on non-bbg affiliates. It hasn't stopped me working with merchants, but I suspect some will.

[mattb811]

Hi Doug,

Most larger merchants will use a 3rd party tracking technology, eg Atlas or Dart, which will deduplicate across all channels apportioning the sale to the last click. Therefore affiliate cookies will be overwritten by any other affiliate who drops a cookie after them, or the merchants own brand PPC activity.

At present we all operate on a last click basis, and until progress is made on developing a more equitable method of rewarding people, this will be how it stays. Dare I suggest that affiliates concentrate on improving conversion on their sites and therefore hopefully reducing the propensity of consumers to navigate away from their site and clicking on a search listing, be that one of a merchant or an affiliate.

Hope that wasn't too "blinkered" a view.

Matt

[ian-d]

Dare I suggest that affiliates concentrate on improving conversion on their sites and therefore hopefully reducing the propensity of consumers to navigate away from their site and clicking on a search listing, be that one of a merchant or an affiliate.

Not really the best suggestions considering BBG PPC results will always appear top of any search regardless of how effective your own organic SERP's are.

[Barry]

De-duplication be it through through a secondary tracking system or cookie overwriting by using closed brand groups through networks is always going to be a loss for the general affiliate who is not involved in the process, however I do think that is is the right of the brand owner to drive their own traffic and pay on a last click basis, even if the last click has come through one of their own ads on their brand.

Ta

Baz

[Barry]

Not really the best suggestions considering BBG PPC results will always appear top of any search regardless of how effective your own organic SERP's are.

The industry is changing and merchants are taking control of their brand,I think its something we need to accept. Affiliates will still get the majority of traffic for brand searches as most people dont click ads they click serps results.

Ta

Baz