Networks and Affiliates4u forums

[Marc Gear]

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Hi all.

Please note that I post this thread as a member of this community, rather than a representive of Affiliate Window, and that the opinions expressed herein are my own and do not necessarily represent the opinions or policys of Affiliate Window.

Recently I have noticed an increasing number of posts from affiliates targeting faults or complaints with particular merchants or networks. The general air of the forums has gotten more negative recently and this negativity, I feel, is largely not represented in a constructive way.

I make a personal policy of not responding to threads on these forums about specific merchants or problems with them (though there have been exceptions). This is because I believe these issues should be resolved on an individual basis between the affiliate, the merchant and the network.

Increasingly it appears that some affiliates expect networks to address the issues and problems which they have with individual merchants here on the forums, rather than through the networks own support channels or communications. I think it is unfair of affiliates to expect networks to address these issues in this way.

I am more than happy to address any issues, complaints, suggestions or points which affiliates have about the Affiliate Window network, publicly on the forum or privately via Awins own support channels (or for those of you with direct contact details - via them). I'm also happy to give my own opinions or thoughts on anything else on these forums, from affiliate marketing to "I'm a Celebrity, Get me out of here!" but I'm not 'on call' here, and I probably wont answer demands for comments about a particular merchant
issue.

These forums are an incredibly useful resource for affiliates, and the industry as a whole. However it is not an official support channel for Awin (and I assume nor for many of our competitors)
Dont get me wrong, I dont want to see the end of posts that ask 'is anyone else experiencing a lack of sales from this merchant' or 'good lord this merchant is taking a decade to validate sales' because these are very useful. Its really just the threads that say 'why havent the network posted anything here about this!' etc

My forum participation is entirely my own choice. Neither Affiliate Window nor any merchant or affiliate can make me post here. I do so in an attempt to improve the service that we can make availiable to affiliates not because I have any obligation to do so.

Thanks for reading this (long-winded) thread. Please post any comments

[Mogga]

An easy solution would be for people to say "I have this problem and I have emailed the network about it" - then feedback when the problem is solved.

Threads which discuss non-validation, disappeared sales etc etc etc are really important and we don't check each others stats and learning whats going on is only clear sometimes when you see more than your own little picture.

People do get cross and frustrated with systems that don't seem to protect us from the myriad of things going wrong.

That "us" is affiliates. I'm not a merchant, a network, employed by a network .... I am purely an affiliate.

When things go wrong for whatever reason we get stressed. We don't have regular guaranteed paychecks
and when money is being withheld for *whatever* reason then we get annoyed and cross. Thats the money we rely on to feed our kids and pay the bills.

I'm not sure all of us emailing the networks or ringing up has a positive effect on network time and resources - so we need to develop a satisfactory road map of communication with each network to suit their preferences.

If any network is happy to have each and everyone of us ring up or email about the same problem to get an update then we need to know.

But, when something effects all of us I don't count it as an individual problem though - so this complicates situations which networks might prefer to treat us as individuals.

Manners cost nothing though, and I don't think the snipping is nice at all.

[NaturalInstinct]

Sorry mark but I don't agree.

Asking people to go through "official channels" and send "private" emails to me sounds like "if there's a problem please keep it to yourself", it also gives networks/merchants the chance to tell one thing to one affilaite and something else to another.

If the networks keep their noses clean and aren't hiding anything then they won't mind discussing issues publicly . Openness breeds trust and trust breeds good business relationships.

From surfing around the forums here I get the general impression that not only do some networks treat the merchant as being more important than the affiliate but that they hold affiliates in a certain amount of contempt.

Put it another way, look around at the "non big brand" merchants that have done really well out of affiliate marketing, like ASOS and Figleaves, they are proof that openness and good communication with affiliates is the key to a successful programme, I think everyone would agree that Jess and Graham do a sterling job.

Affiliate marketing is a 2 (or 3) way relationship where each member is as important as any other, remember, no affilaites = no wages for the networks at the end of the day.

I can see some UK networks clearly on the way up and some clearly on the way down and what sets them apart is the way they treat their affiliates, not the "big brand" merchants which is what i think networks percieve to be what makes a good network (although a few big brands always helps)

This post isn't really aimed at mark or AW , it's just a few thoughts about what i've been reading on the forums for the last few weeks, or the "negative attitude" as mark puts it which has been hanging around like a bad smell. The problem always seems to stem back to the same thing, merchants/networks not being open and honest.

[Luke]

I know the affiliates are all very impressed with your input into this forum and genuinely believe you do as much as you can to help (that's what other affiliates have told me), I won't comment on AW myself because I don't use the network.

But surely it begs the question, if there are recurring issues that result in uproar, would it not make sense to introduce measures to eliminate them - or do you feel that most of them are just part and parcel of affiliate marketing and that affiliates should appreciate this?

I think that the high levels of incredulity shown by affiliates on this forum at the way some of these merchants operate is exacerbated by the complete lack of control some of the networks have over them. There is a feeling that sometimes the amazing errors are not being dealt with or communicated to affiliates.

It is our job to send you traffic and your job to make sure that the network is running smoothly so that we get rewarded. It is not our job to chase every merchant up when we think the tracking is wrong or there is a ridiculous level of clawbacks - the networks should be able to spot statistical anomalies. But that's not aimed at you Marc, but networks in general.

[John]

I can see both sides of this...

Some people can be too quick to post here with complaints/rants etc, myself included. In the ideal world, if you have a problem, you should contact the network/merchant directly. I see no problem however with anyone subsequently posting to the forum saying "I've got this problem - I'm in contact with the network/merchant"

On the other hand, I regularly see representatives of some networks (and no, I'm not going to name names here!)who are happy to use the forum when it suits them, (i.e. they have a new merchant/promotion/offer) read a post from someone who is having problems and choose to ignore it.

We should remember that the A4U forums, and in particular the individual networks forums are for discussion, and are not an official support channel.

However, if a representative of a network/merchant reads a post which clearly needs support, may I suggest they take 30 seconds to post a reply along the lines of "Give me a call/e-mail/support ticket and I'll look into this for you" - It can save a lot of the negative energy in the long-run

[drooper]

cop out

[Ballswinger]

I don't see any categories on the forum with the header:

UK Affiliate Marketing Forum > Network's Solutions

You can't really expect these poor affiliate managers, working 9 - 5 on salary to then take their work home with them and use their own time answering queries and complaints.

I do think, however, that if enough of a debate has arisen about a particular problem that it's very similar to a peaceful protest.

No company is in the market for upsetting their workforce - and I have noticed that if a particular thread grows with similar queries or problems that these guys do take 'time-out' to post a reply - but it really shouldn't be expected.

It's great to have this forum to air different views and speak with like minded peolple.

I'll be the first to admit that if there is a problem with one of the networks or independents that it is beyond frustrating not to be able to sort it out there and then and it's all too easy to jump the gun when I don't recieve a reply or I recieve an unsatisfactory excuse and so jump in here and post a message whilst my head is still exploding.
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One thing that I think would be really useful would be a section with all the network's account manager's and independent's contact details on the forum - (voluntarily) - not sure what their thoughts would be on that???
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Anyways, that my 2 pennies worth

Andrew

[Matthew Wood]

Good post Marc, and I agree with many of your comments.

I'd Like to talk about a few issues here.

Firstly as a reminder this forum should not be used as a personal support channel for any network - otherwise I might have to start charging them for the service

Taken from the forum rules.

This forum system is not the appropriate medium for personal or private vendettas. This forum should not be used to attempt to resolve personal problems with member or companies. Please email them directly

In all circumstances, and this has been stated by many ASP's is that your first point of call should be the networks own support channels.. if the problem is not resolved in a timely manner then I see no reason why it should not be posted here IF it may affect other affiliates.. and is not a problem which is exclusively yours.

The problem with some posts at the moment is that they are wildly innacurate, libelous or just plain garbage, however a lot are genuine causes for concern and these are often thrown in the marble bag with the others.

Many of these important posts are in terms of revenue protection such as 'have you had sales for xxx merchant ' or 'it seems slow on xxx today... ' you know the ones....

Yes, tracking problems do occur, and affiliates need to know asap in order to re-evaluate the situation. Covering up a tracking issue is dangerous both in terms of reputation for the program, network and future usage.

I thoroughly agree with lukes comments.

It is our job to send you traffic and your job to make sure that the network is running smoothly so that we get rewarded. It is not our job to chase every merchant up when we think the tracking is wrong or there is a ridiculous level of clawbacks - the networks should be able to spot statistical anomalies.

I really am unsure why affiliate networks have not introduced simple triggers which alert them if a sales have reduced by a certain percentage over an hour / day/ week or month.. (heaven forbid if it takes that long to find a problem) a human can then investigate the issue manually.

This not only affects our trust and revenue streams but also their 30% cut and holistically their reputation and survival in many circumstances.

I'm unsure if the networks have such or a similar system in place, Ive not heard of any who have, but if you do then please post details so it can reassure all of us, or post the details me - matthew@affiliates4u.co.uk - and I'll make a big song and dance about it to everyone.

I'm presuming here though (which I don't like to do) the reason is that nothing I believe has ever been mentioned about the topic by any network.

In addition there have been huge problems on some networks in recent times regarding the non tracking of sales thus compensation packages being implemented in some circumstances. Either that or people have been naughty and have been covering up lead or sale diminishment! which is a very dangerous thing to do.

I think this is a really constructive point (a very basic one too!) and one that will ease a lot of problems and negativism within the industry if its sorted.

So here is a list. Each network is listed and hopefully in a few days we can see who has a system in place to detect hourly reductions in sales or leads. Or even a similar system which we can perhaps note the details of below.


1. AF
2. AW
3. AD.com
4. Buy.at - Details Here
5. CJ
6. DGM
7. OMG
8. POR - Details Here
9. TD


We can update it as and when we know the answers.

Regards,
Matt.

[Azam.net]

"In addition there have been huge problems on some networks in recent times regarding the non tracking of sales thus compensation packages being implemented in some circumstances. Either that or people have been naughty and have been covering up lead or sale diminishment! which is a very dangerous thing to do."

I agree with Matt completely.

Some people would be less sensible than Matt and would use the word "fraudulent" rather than "naughty".

I personally have know of well-known merchants who have deliberately set up barriers to ensure they have to pay out as little commission as possible and it is not unlikely that that is occuring now. But affiliate networks don't generally care. Their emphasis is to please the merchants not affiliates. As all the marketing materials of the networks prove, there is a definitive bias with the way standard UK affiliate programs are set up in favour of the merchant.

Because of our disillusionment with UK networks who are not willing to reveal EPC stats., we are doing more and more work with US networks. The CEO of DirectResponse is not afraid to lamblast dodgy/non-converting merchants on their network. UK affiliate networks just stay quiet and earn their monthly fees while poor affiliates send merchants masses of traffic for no reward.

[Qui Gon Jinn]

Personally I endorse what Natural Instinct said in his entire thread.

"if there's a problem please keep it to yourself"

This what me must avoid at all costs. Don't veil it, hide it or disguise it.

Complete openness and honesty by a network / merchant is the only thing which shall induce trust or respect from affiliates.

As forum members we have to be each others eyes and ears.

Also "From surfing around the forums here I get the general impression that not only do some networks treat the merchant as being more important than the affiliate but that they hold affiliates in a certain amount of contempt."

It's appreciated that networks walk a fine line between affiliate and merchant. Unfortuantely more often than not, the network doesn't have the tenacity to deal effectively with problematic merchants in case it affects their current and future portfolio of clients. There is without doubt a "definite bias" towards merchants. Like when it comes from an agency..I hasten to add only some agencies who look after a number of potential clients. Most problems we find go unresolved.

Haven't you noticed that amongst the most successful programs are managed by merchants who regularly partcipate within this forum.... It is an obvious pattern... They have our trust. This applies to a couple of networks too.

Matt.... Your request was great..cards need to be on the table on what flagging systems are in place to protect our interest.

Otherwise I can forsee more affilaites seeking independant deals with "the poor" network left out of the equation as the affiliates begrudges their 30% over-ride which hasn't been duly earned. Apart from a couple of networks, we certainly are looking at this option more and more. We are losing our patience.

John...."I regularly see representatives of some networks (and no, I'm not going to name names here!)who are happy to use the forum when it suits them, (i.e. they have a new merchant/promotion/offer) read a post from someone who is having problems and choose to ignore it."

- Quite true

A lot of issues basically revolve the same old things which is exasperating. If these were attended to properly then no doubt we would be focusing more on the postive aspects of driving sales than wasting valuable time chasing these recycled problems.

[Marc Gear]

Hi all,

Obviously I want to address a few points raised in this thread.

Asking people to go through "official channels" and send "private" emails to me sounds like "if there's a problem please keep it to yourself", it also gives networks/merchants the chance to tell one thing to one affilaite and something else to another.

Thats true, it can look like that, of course it looks like that, but for our support departments to work, it has to work like that.
However I think that my initial post made it quite clear that I dont want things not to be discussed, infact, I'd rather they were discussed here, because then I can point a merchant at a thread and say "Hey... look what this is doing to the reputation of your affiliate programme - fix this issue"

Awin at least, has in place measures so that we can cope with the level of support enquiries we recieve, keeping to these support channels means that all affiliates _are_ being told the same thing, rather than 3 different things in 3 different channels.

If any network is happy to have each and everyone of us ring up or email about the same problem to get an update then we need to know.

More than happy to have you all email/ticket about the same issue with a merchant. It means we have all the more weight to lean with.

if there are recurring issues that result in uproar, would it not make sense to introduce measures to eliminate them - or do you feel that most of them are just part and parcel of affiliate marketing and that affiliates should appreciate this?

I read all the feedback on this forum about Awin (or try to) and react (and often reply) to it. We have several large projects running concurrently in order to resolve the problems that affiliates and merchants have with our network. I'm more than happy to discuss any of these on a general level, rather than just 'what we are doing about merchant X'

My aim for 2004 is for Affiliate Window to become a much more open network, with affiliates having much more information about a problem and its resolution.

I see no problem however with anyone subsequently posting to the forum saying "I've got this problem - I'm in contact with the network/merchant"
I agree. Its not this that I take any objection to, infact, i'd encourage it. It is the subsequent post that says 'Well NetworkName should post here and tell us all what they are doing about it'

It hasnt gone unnoticed that you would rather talk about "I'm a Celebrity, Get me out of here" than address issues that affiliates are concerned about. I agree entirely with NaturalInstinct's sentiments. Each time someone brings up an issue and you shy away from it it reinforces the perception that you are turning a blind eye.

Lol,
If you think i do nothing but idle my time away here talking about inane gameshows, you are mistaken. I have a full time job which requires that I spend about 8 or 9 hours a day responding to affiliates about the issues they have either with individual merchants or Awin in general or working on resolving them.

I often choose not to answer posts which are accusatory and inflamatory, or which are about a specific merchant and should be addressed through our official support channels.

If you think affiliates are going to keep these concerns to their selfs you are wrong
I dont expect affiliates to keep these concerns to themselves. I'm not wanting to stifle discussion, I just dont want to be expected (in many cases demanded) to answer queries rather than through our own channels.

It sounds like youre threatening to run away from this forum rather than let us know that youre going to look into it when we have an issue. I would like to get along with you because I think youre a nice guy but I dont stand on ceremony for anyone and I'm not going to pretend your inaction and reluctance to even acknowledge issues doesnt make me angry.

I'm a horrible guy, bloody awful, any of my colleague or the people in the industry who have met me will tell you that, but I dont stand on ceremony either, I dont dance for people, and nor do I answer to the demands of people who are rude, or offensive.

I'm not threatening to stop posting here. Far from it.

One thing that I think would be really useful would be a section with all the network's account manager's and independent's contact details on the forum - (voluntarily) - not sure what their thoughts would be on that???

Sounds like a plan. I'll post a thread on the awin board with my details, and a Mod can sticky it.

who has a system in place to detect hourly reductions in sales or leads.

Affiliate Window doesn't have an hourly detection system to spot reductions in leads & sales on an individual merchant basis. For many of our merchants, sales and leads do not necessarily occur this regularly. We monitor sales drops over either a 2 day or weekly period. If the rate of sales drops by over 20% (i think) then this merchant is flagged as having a potential tracking problem and we investigate this. We are currently reworking this system to improve the reaction time and resolution for these tracking problems.

Our whole network is monitored by both ourselves and an independant company for any problems. The way our system is developed, if there is a tracking problem that is the fault of Awin, then this tracking problem will likley exist for all merchants and affiliates.

I hope this helps.

[getvisible]

I read all the feedback on this forum about Awin (or try to) and react (and often reply) to it. We have several large projects running concurrently in order to resolve the problems that affiliates and merchants have with our network.

Employ more people to gurantee satisfactory customer service?

[Barry]

I am all in favour of contacting merchants or networks directly with any problems first. Its only fair to do this, and I consistently get same day replies from most networks on major issues I have.

However - I would like to point out that I joined and regulary visit this forum because it IS an 'Affiliate' forum and not a network or merchant forum (though, as pointed out, it is greatly appreciated when they take part in public disscussion, as it enforces trust and openess). And its nice to be able to get almost instant confirmation of any suspected problems or issues I feel are on the go.

As an 'affiliate' forum I feel that people should not finish posts with. eg.

I'd like to hear what Network XXX has to say

or

So, network XXX what are you going to do about this problem...

because as getvisible says and Marc hints, most of the networks do not have enough employees/time to sit on here all day answering requests. Its for this reason I think its inappropriate for 'affiliate forum users' to feel that networks/merchants should be required to answer support requests via this forum and should not be placed in a position where they feel they have to reply to save the integrity of their program.

The basic rule of thumb should be:
1.) Contact network.
2.) Wait for a reply!
3.) Contact them again if you are unsatisfied.
4.) Wait for reply!
5.) Discuss on the forum.

Ta

[drivetowin]

It is a fact that at least one representative of all of the major networks is a member of these forums.

As this forum has established itself (and hats off to Matt for achieving this) as the 'de-facto' standard for UK affiliates if the networks are serious about affiliate relationships they would be wise to have one person spend at least an hour a day surveying the threads and responding accordingly - as in any industry the key to happy relationships is communication - something some networks still have some work to do on - I was concerned last night to read Nicky from DGMs comment that she advises her programme manager (James) not to respond to forum threads - wow - must mean that the DGM new employee induction pack comes with a pick and a shovel together with that famous book "The Dummys Guide to Ostrich Impersonation"

That having been said, I fully support the notion that problems should be conveyed to the networks privately first and only if unresolved (or if it becomes apparent that it could affect a number of affiliates) aired on the forum - it was noticeable in the DGM thread yesterday that while I emailed DGM first thing in the morning several members who had been verbose on the forum thread waited until significantly later in the day to do so - I'm not saying I'm perfect (or even close to it ) - if something annoys me enough I'll vent off about it here just like everyone else....

But responsive networks can make a difference - during January I had a major problem with one merchant on OMG - it only affected me and no other affiliate - but personal discussions with Tyson ensured a resolution to everyones satisfaction within 24 hours and there was no need for me to air the problem on the forum at all.

Likewise with Buy-at - I know that an email to Malcolm will always illicit a timely response (thanks for the reply yesterday Malcolm even though you were on holiday) - and the bottles of champagne are always welcome too

The ironic thing is I don't think these networks are doing anything the others couldn't (and TD is probably an excellent example of how a networks communication can turn around - this time last year I could guarantee an email to them would go unanswered for days - now an answer comes usually same day or certainly within 24 hours).

[tonystubbings]

Good posting Marc.

I have a general question. Recently we have terminated several Affiliate account because of fraudulent activity.

Would it be appropriate for us to post the details of these affiliates on this forum? Bearing in mind that one or two are very well known on these boards?!?! If posting this information was appropriate, when would be a good time to post this? During our investigation or after we had gathered the facts and taken action, or perhaps as soon as our suspicions are aroused?

Would it also be appropriate for us to share these identities with other networks?!?! Either privately (PM!) or via this public forum?!?

cheers