Post Impression Tracking - Very concerned

[Malcolm Cowley]

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Hi

I dont think I will win many votes from affiliates for my views on this but I feel very strongly about it and as the forum is for discussion felt a post in the Lounge was probably the best place to start one.

With two networks already in the last few months coming out with Post impression tracking I am worried that this is being advised to plenty of merchants out there and I am concerned that more will follow.

The fact that the latest merchant to be seen with a PI cookie is also a new merchant who I would think has very limited knowledge of affiliate land and affiliate programs makes it even more scary for me.

PI is so open to abuse its unreal - Big Brand names attract thousands of direct visitors yet with a PI cookie I could earn £1000's from loading up a banner in no mans land at the foot of an email or a webpage wich has high unrelated traffic who then go on to sign up with the merchant concerned within the PI cookie period.

I could even modify the image size so its invisible ??

Thousands of eyes never seeing the branding or the banner/button yet 100's who could have every intention of the next click being the merchant anyway yet now I pocket the commission.

I think affiliate marketing on CPA is a great model and one that can work very well for all parties concerned but I do not see PI as the future and cant believe that any company especially a big brand would swallow it if they were fully aware of the implications.

Would be interested to hear any alternative views though - maybe I am worrying about nothing?

Mal

[999gi]

You've lost me mal - not sure what you're talking about & based on what you say - why would they do this anyway when they have a perfectly good model. Is it for the portals like MSN & Yahoo?

[Malcolm Cowley]

Hi mate

Post impression tracking is where the visitor views the banner and then later on goes on to buy from the merchant and if its within the cookie period the affiliate is paid for the sale.

So no click through to the merchants site is neccessary.

There are two affiliate programs that I am aware of that use this form of tracking. One is new to affiliate marketing - like you say why would anyone switch to this - I cant see any brands we work with giving it the time of day but you never know and as its being proactivley advised by some networks then it is worth discussing as a concern IMO.

Logging an impression is all you need to do to get your visitor cookied.

Mal

[Rich]

It could also be a big problem with affiliates using adware to abuse a berchants site. At the moment an affilite using adware has to force a click thru an affiliate link to set a cookie and this is against most networks' t&cs (or at least they don't like it when they find out about it!), but I would guess an affiliate showing thier own site with a PI banner on it would be out of the control of the network and harder for them to monitor.

It also seems odd that the latest program only mentions a PI cookie and not a click cookie, in the past the other network has said a click cookie has preference over a PI cookie, which offers some protection. So if a user goes to affilliate A's site and clicks a link to merchant Z, then visits Affiliate B's site and sees a banner for merchant Z but doesn't click on it, then goes to the merchants site and places an order - I think A should get the sale as they got the visitor to the site which is a bigger action than just reminding them of the site which is what B did, possibly, the user might not have even noticed the banner.

[ianm]

Originally posted by Rich
possibly, the user might not have even noticed the banner.

The banner might not even be visible to the user.

The major problem with PI cookies is the amount of abuse they can be subjected to. There are various ways to display the banner and plant your cookie without it being visible to the user (such as the one Malcolm has already mentioned). I'd also expect to see that merchant appearing as a pop-up on loads of totally unrelated sites.

[Supercod]

In short, if I have a site(s) that got 4 million UK visitors a month (and I just might), I just need to make sure they all get on a page that has all the PI banners on them, 88x31 size will do the trick, not that size of banner maters.. then I will have set every month 4 million cookies and hey presto I am rich by not targeting a single thing or doing any extra work other than making sure once I get a visitor my site that they see a banner in amongst all the others.. hey I might as well set 1x1 invisible iframe links as that would do the same trick as a PI cookie.. oh wait that is fraud

I think PI cookies have a use in tracking usage and stats but I don't think they should be used for sales... the issue is short term affiliates and networks (more the networks) will make more money but long term if we don’t have a justifiable use for them, it could see affiliate marketing getting a bad name..

[999gi]

Ah I see

So its good for fraudsters and networks who piggy back off them but not much else.

Would need to be a very greedy and short sighted network to promote this wouldnt it (can only think of one)

[Supercod]

One use for PI would be 24 hours setting of the cookie for banners with URL's in them... but of course clicks new or old should always take priority over PI cookies.

Their is an argument that is going around that by use displaying banners with branding, we remind the user about the site much in same way as billboards do and that people on seeing the branding don't always react with a visit their and then but later on that day and so on.. this is another place I can see a use however what I can't see is away to stop the abuse easily, look how hard it is for everyone to deal with spyware / adware abusers.

[loquax]

To save others wondering if Malc's been at the Christmas Sherry early - the PI program is announced here.

Screentrade on TD is the other program I know of - maybe TD will say how much effect the PI cookie has on sales?

From a publisher POV I could see some possible benefits to us using PI banners in a reasonable way - perhaps a way of clawing back some cookie burns

(Current example - we send free traffic as that's what we do, site sets cookies for their merchant sponsors, affiliate gets sales - we don't, sponsors love affiliate site not realising it's our traffic, we get bugger all - except a crappy reciprocal link at a foot of a page (see *)).

At least with PI - as a user then returns to us - we can overwrite cookies burnt as above.

Jason

* - bitter and twisted Christmas rant

[MK]

Hi, putting my old 'media hat' on, PI tracking is essential for media agencies / clients to track and dedupe conversions back to an advertising exposure. As they will attribute a sale back a singular source, there is a possibility that they will 'pay for a sale twice' by attributing to MSN (for example) but also paying an affiliate for it.

Equally, the big portals are also pushing for PI tracking as it makes their direct response deals far more efficient.

One route which I have heard some clients are adopting is a 'universal tracking tag' which they use to track all media, PPC and affiliate tracking. The last click / impression/ view prior to the event claims the sale.

I imagine this issue will continue to raise itself until a precedent is set which is acceptable to affiliates and merchants alike.

MK

[Supercod]

Originally posted by Potman
One route which I have heard some clients are adopting is a 'universal tracking tag' which they use to track all media, PPC and affiliate tracking. The last click / impression/ view prior to the event claims the sale.

Universal Tracking Tag, so basically Local Cookies then http://www.a4uforum.co.uk/showthread...threadid=14389

Last impression or view is so wrong in many ways (see above) but I fully agree with last click no matter what the source, should be the one that counts.

Knowing where your sales come from is one of the things that makes the Internet such a great way to advertise... unlike radio, billboards, TV and press. However allowing PI would mean an effective end to cookie length and repeat sales for the affiliate sending the customer last as their customer could pick up a PI cookie from normal surfing and return to the site not having clicked on any other adverts and just returning because they know about it from the initial click and visit and not because a banner some place reminded them to visit, if they where going to because they seen a banner doesn’t it stand to reason they click on it if that was what was making them go back.

Imagine it now, the moment you log on line with AOL, BT, NTL etc you see an advert on your home page and wham your now tagged with a PI cookie, wiping out the cookies you might have got via visiting a site the day before via an affiliate link.

[MK]

That is precisely the problem which we have come up against recently. We have had to stipulate that whatever the PI tracking system states, the merchant will still have to honour the data which their affiliate network is reporting.

In my opinion, failure to do so could seriously jeopardise a clients affiliate program- something which they do not want to happen.

I would imagine that the click from the affiliate site would be the last prior to the transaction, therefore, there shouldn't be too many sales lost on that basis. As you have said, the danger is that someone returns to their PC, fires up IE, gets exposed to a banner, returns to the site which they bookmarked after the aff link - the sale is then attributed to MSN!

[Dynamoo]

Argh, the potential for abuse here is HUGE. We already have enough problem with affiliates using IFRAMEs of a merchant's site to set the cookie, it sounds like PI tracking is another invitation for cookie stuffing.

Yes, by all means it sounds like a good way of tracking a "brand awareness" campaign, but not really a good way to run an affiliate program.

[The kiwi]

Mal,

Firstly, well done for raising this *****ly and growing issue. I agree with your thoughts: post impression sales for merchants/advertisers are bad news.

By example, we signed up to a small affiliate program who is based in w1, London. Without warning we signed up to PI sales and our first invoice from them made our eyes water.

After expressing our deep concern with this compamy we have not heard from them since.

So merchants be aware.

Good luck,
James
uswitch.com

[MK]

The potential for abuse ia a potential problem, however, if the potential issues are discussed with the merchant / their agency from the outset. I'm sure a mutually acceptable solution can be found.

I imagine this will start to crop up more often as affiliates become a greater part of the merchants online marketing mix. I think communication and education will be a key factor in steering a way through this.