New try, Networks vs In House

[allaffiliatepro]

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Hi All,
For those of you that remember, I started a thread like this last year. It was very entertaining, but went way off topic.

Now I'm going to give it another try. I've got an updated list, and I'm going to give a bit more explaination from the start.


I'm trying to thrash out a list of advantages and disadvantages of affiliate networks and in house programs.

In this post this is from a Merchants perspective, not an affiliates. So please would all merchants reading this thread give me your views.

There are fundermental things that in house and network people aren't going to agree on, let's not argue about it.

This list is for a new internet marketing site I will be releasing toward the end of this month. Those that are most helpful will be offered free access. The site is covering everything internet marketing related, not just affiliate programs.


So here is my current list. It may look a little biased if your a network, but don't forget I'm in house. I'm trying to create as fair a list as possible.


Affiliate Networks


Advantages
· Affiliate pool to tap into
· Hands off affiliate payment
· No software to maintain
· Network branding can increase trust
· They deal with affiliate requests

Disadvantages
· Affiliates are not your own
· You do not have full Affiliate contact details (if any)
· A lot of competition on the network
· High monthly fees
· Large % takings from affiliate earnings
· Affiliate links do not go through your site
· Affiliate program must conform to often inflexible affiliate network commission structures
· Any affiliate program promotions are on behalf of the network, not your program individually
· Leaving an affiliate network usually means loosing all your affiliates


In-House Affiliate Programs

Advantages
· You are in complete control of the program
· Affiliates are your own
· You have Affiliate contact details
· No commissions taken from Affiliate earnings allowing you to offer a higher %
· Small or no monthly fees
· Versatile and adaptable to your specific website needs
· Integrates with virtually any type of order system
· Offline affiliate tracking
· Affiliate links count towards link popularity
· Potentially greater tracking accuracy
· Private affiliate networks
· Affiliate program only advertises your sites
· Any affiliate program promotions are specifically for your affiliate program, not for the benefit of an affiliate network as a whole
· Can be fully scripted into dynamic sites

Disadvantages
· You must find your own affiliates
· Hands on Affiliate Payments
· You deal with affiliate requests



Let me know what you think is right, what's wrong and what's missing.

Remember this is from a merchants perspective, I'll do a post for an affiliate perspective later.


Stay Calm!

[matbennett]

One disadvantage of an in-house programme that seems to have been missed is that many affiliates will simply not deal with independent programmes.

[pistol101]

Looks a good start. You'd probably do yourself wonders if you had some links to explain the points further.

For example:

-Large % takings from affiliate earnings - Yes there's a surcharge, but you should note what the breakdown of the charges involves. For example on AffiliateFuture of the surcharge your getting affiliate recruitment bonuses, bandwidth on the adserving & cost of commission payments.

-Put some real life situation - Can they cope with an affiliate creating 100s of accounts overnight with false details, forging IP addresses, referals and putting through hundreds of orders.

or the affiliate putting up every banner you own on one page and then buying millions of pop-unders!

-High monthly fees. Some of us cost less than the independent programmes you can buy!! Do a comparision page.

And the biggest disadvantage of an independent system is that you need to have someone who knows how to make sure the system works on days when Microsoft release new patches and block cookies, banners, urls.

I've found another site that i think is doing something very similar to you, i'll see if i can dig out the details. Shout if you need any help.

[BenKowaBunga]

Just a comment.

You say 'You deal with affiliate requests' is a disadvantage of an inhouse system...is it? Would you rather rely on a third party to deal with your affiliate requests? Wouldn't you like to keep your finger on the pulse of what your affiliates want and what they ask for?

Yes, it's extra work, but I don't think it's a disadvantage.

Also, just to keep things balanced - on the other side you say a disadvantage of a network is 'Any affiliate program promotions are on behalf of the network, not your program individually' - when an email is sent to a merchants affiliates within a network promoting something, how is that NOT promoting your program individually?

[moogie]

One of the biggest advantages is the fact networks are used to dealing with both merchants and affiliates; I think the word is 'experience'. Pete pointed out the fact that the best networks vet their affiliates before they are allowed to promote their merchants. Believe me there are some very smart people out there who will rob you blind before you know what has happened.
Okay there are the overide fees, but this should be taken into consideration when you set your acquisition.

The best affiliates have a great working relationship with the merchants and this is passed on in the form of positive PR. You only have to work with Mal at Buy.at to appreciate this. We have introduced a few big programs with them and his PR work has introduced some excellent affiliates. Without that sort of positive PR the programs would not of done as half as good – Fact.

Affiliates are a close-knit community and word of mouth soon gets around. If you have no network back up and something goes dramatically wrong with your program you are in it up to your neck. Who is going to sort that one out?

All the networks have a technical knowledge second to none. Ryan (AW), Paul (Buy.at), Clarke (POR) just to name a few are experts in what they do. If there is a problem and quite often there are, you need these guys to act quickly to resolve the problem.

With the industry changing what seems almost daily you need to the networks to be at the sharp end to implement any new ideas and technology. Going it alone can be costly and unless you have the correct people and technology in place you are out in the cold.

Good luck!!!

[BenKowaBunga]

There are two different inhouse/independent programs;
Those that are hosted, maintained, customized and supported by the merchant...
...and those that are hosted, maintained, customized and supported by the software company.

[allaffiliatepro]

This is looking good.

matbennett - added to the list.

pistol101 - I'm always happy to get help. I'll put explainations on my site, popup ? marks should do the trick.

BenKowaBunga - Your right. I'll change it more imte consuming, and add that to the positive.

'Any affiliate program promotions are on behalf of the network, not your program individually' - when an email is sent to a merchants affiliates within a network promoting something, how is that NOT promoting your program individually?

I mean when a network is promoting to signup new afiliates to the network, not promotions to affiliates they already have. That's covered by 'Affiliate pool to tap into'.

moogie - Good point. But it would depend on who you buy your in house affiliate software from. The top software developers have unrivaled technical knowledge of how track, etc works as they have written the code themselves. They'll know exactly what's possible, and what to avoid. Depending on the company they can offer all kinds of support with your program. I know that I give free tech support to my customers and give all kinds of advice. I'm building guides and tutorials for my customers to help them through and answer any questions I get. I can't speek for other in house developers. I doubt you get the same level of support from low cost or budget solutions.

If you have no network back up and something goes dramatically wrong with your program you are in it up to your neck. Who is going to sort that one out?

Depends on who you got your affiliate software from. I know for a fact I drop everything if any bugs or security holes surface in AllAffiliatePro, and get everything fixed ASAP. I pride myself on the quality of my software.

By the way, when version 5 finally lands (hopefully next month) I'll be offering a free copy to one merchant who is active in this community. Anyone who's interested in helping with the development can PM me.

[km8]

Originally posted by allaffiliatepro
Affiliate Networks

Advantages
· Affiliate pool to tap into
· Hands off affiliate payment
· No software to maintain
· Network branding can increase trust
· They deal with affiliate requests

In-House Affiliate Programs


Disadvantages
· You must find your own affiliates
· Hands on Affiliate Payments
· You deal with affiliate requests


Let me know what you think is right, what's wrong and what's missing.

Remember this is from a merchants perspective, I'll do a post for an affiliate perspective later.

Stay calm! - I like your style!

OK, I'm speaking as an affiliate but I suggest that if affiliates see advantages and disadvantages, that's relevant to merchants too - so I'll add my tuppence (if you don't mind ) It seems to me that the object of an affiliate program, indy or network, is to recruit affiliates.

As an affiliate I'm far (and I mean far) more likely to join your program via a network.
Why?
- It's easier to find you in the first place
- I get a single cheque (provided you don't join LinkS***e) oops, for the sake of clarity, the missing letter are not h*t
- I'm dealing with a known quantity. ie, I trust them as far as I trust them, whereas with an Indy, I just don't know.
- I can see 20/50 merchants performance at one login, not 20/50 logins and time is money
- The network has an interest in seeing that the program is fair, it tracks, pays on time, etc, which just hapens to coincide with my interests

OK, there are disadvantages too (from an affiliate point of view):
- I'll have more competition to deal with
- Ummmm? - OK, that's all I can think of

Maybe the best course is a combination - network and Indy.
If you perform on the network, I can find and screen your program via the netword, then move to the Indy program if there are benefits for me as an affiliate, once I know your program performs.

Actually, maybe that's a benefit for you too - the network does the initial screening, compliance checking (except LinkS***e), etc - then you invite the winners to the join the Indy program?

OK, they're just some thoughts - remember what the man said, Stay Calm!

KM8

[drivetowin]

As someone who as well as being an affiliate also runs a merchant programme independently and as part of a network (AF) let me comment on these



Affiliate Networks

Disadvantages
· Affiliates are not your own

True - but not exactly sure this matters

· You do not have full Affiliate contact details (if any)

Depends on the network

· A lot of competition on the network

Depends on your offering - if your offering is unique you have no competition

· High monthly fees

Depends how good you are at negotiating - my network monthly fees are extremely low

· Large % takings from affiliate earnings

Again, depends how good you are at negotiating

· Affiliate program must conform to often inflexible affiliate network commission structures

Havent yet found a commission structure my network cant cope with

· Any affiliate program promotions are on behalf of the network, not your program individually

Not true - I can issue an email to all of my affiliates via the network interface

· Leaving an affiliate network usually means loosing all your affiliates

True - but then you should look on the whole merchant/network/affiliate relationship as a long term thing imho


In-House Affiliate Programs

Disadvantages
· You must find your own affiliates
Takes hours and hours of sweat and toil
· Hands on Affiliate Payments
Takes hours and hours of sweat and toil
· You deal with affiliate requests
Takes hours and hours of sweat and toil (sure you're spotting a trend here)
- add

When the tracking goes wrong you have to fix it
When an affiliate queries why a transaction has not tracked - you have to deal with it
When an affiliate places fraudulent transactions - you have to deal with it

To put it in perspective, managing my affiliates via the network (and I have about 100) takes me less than a couple of hours a week

Managing my independent affiliates (and I only have a handful) takes me about 15 hours a week

For me, having experienced both scenarios, network wins hands down every time

[SillyJokes]

I suppose I should throw in my opinion here.

Networks do not deal with all the queries affiliates have, particularly minor affiliates, by which I mean 90% of them. Affiliates still contact the merchant direct with some queries which means the merchant must deal with them. The point i'm trying to make is, having a network does not mean zero input from the merchant.

You pay the network and you still have to do the work if you want the program to succeed.

I've always felt a lot closer to 'my' affiliates. I have either found them or they have found me. Effort has been made and therefore they are far more likely to actually put finger to keyboard and promote my site, rather than sign up to every single merchant offered by a network.

Having a network does not mean you have a lot more productive affiliates. I have more productive affiliates on my indy than on my network. The network has a higher proportion of people who sign up and do nothing.

For a smaller merchant I would think one of the few advantages of a network is that some affiliates prefer to be with networks for the reasons detailed above, however in my experience I had affiliates who were doing fine on the indy who moved to the network when it was introduced and are now costing me more. If I never had the network I suspect they would have continued with the indy.

Another major advantage, if a rather miserable one, is that the likes of Kelkoo and Pangora prefer to work with a network and it is difficult to work with them unless you are on the networks they are prepared to work with. Therefore remember this when picking your network if you plan to promote your site through these channels.

[allaffiliatepro]

Hi KM8,
Thanks for the input.
The question of trust keeps cropping up. But doesn't that really depend on the merchant? If it's Amazon or Sony I'm sure you dont have any trust issues. If it's an unknown dodgy looking site offering a stupidly high percentage then few are going to trust.
I'm designing a system where you could see central stats from indy programs. AllAffiliatePro ones at least. I'll make the technology open source so other software producers can utilize the system.
you said

The network has an interest in seeing that the program is fair, it tracks, pays on time, etc

Any reputable indy program would have the same interests. Reward affiliate properly and they'll send you more sales.

Maybe the best course is a combination - network and Indy.

My recommendation exactly. If you are going to join a network, get an indy setup first. Then for whatever reason you leave the network, hopefully you won't loose all your affiliates.

Thanks for the good responce, calmly put


Hi Kbudden,

Any affiliate program promotions are on behalf of the network, not your program individually -
Not true - I can issue an email to all of my affiliates via the network interface

I mean when the network is talking to affiliates or affiliate reps convincing them to join the affiliate network. I'll try to re-word the point.

When the tracking goes wrong you have to fix it
When an affiliate queries why a transaction has not tracked - you have to deal with it
When an affiliate places fraudulent transactions - you have to deal with it

Who did you get your software from. Depending on the vendor they should sort this out for you, or a least give you a lot of help. I know I do.

Managing my independent affiliates (and I only have a handful) takes me about 15 hours a week

It should never take that long. 15hrs a week? Who is your indy program provider? Could you give me a break down on where that 15hrs go so I can better understand.


Hi SillyJokes,
Thanks for some excellent input.
I did have a merhcnat asking about Kelkoo, I'm going to get in touch and see what I can arrange for my customers.
Dealing with your affiliates direct does build a much stronger relationship.
I've sent you a PM. Hopefully we can help each other out

[Simon]

First of all research is always key.

I have commented as I have experience in all areas of affiliate marketing, so I hope this is helpful.


Affiliate Networks


Disadvantages
· Affiliates are not your own

As I said above, research would tell you that this is totally wrong, and ask the affiliates if the merchants they promote own them.

· You do not have full Affiliate contact details (if any)

Again, there are networks that provide full contact details

· A lot of competition on the network

Competition is good for affiliates as it ensures they get a good deal. If a merchant can't compete, then no matter which option he takes it will not succeed

· High monthly fees

I would like you to describe the amount of high. these fees cover costs, Administration, bandwidth, support, consultancy, devlopment and the many other aspects of providing a service, if a merchant could provide this to a large number of affiliates themselves it would cost a fortune in staffing.

· Large % takings from affiliate earnings

Again, what is large, be more accurate, you also have to remember that the network will only get these fees if they produce the results for the merchant.

· Affiliate links do not go through your site

Could be a good thing if an affiliate is spamming!

· Affiliate program must conform to often inflexible affiliate network commission structures

From my experience, networks are able to adapt to a merchants needs as they have their own development departments, would a merchant be able to re-write their indi software?

· Any affiliate program promotions are on behalf of the network, not your program individually.

At least we know that the networks are activly promoting the merchants, and they have the affiliates to promote the merchants to.

· Leaving an affiliate network usually means loosing all your affiliates

This would depend on how good your program is and the netwrok you are with.



In-House Affiliate Programs

Advantages
· You are in complete control of the program

What makes you think that this isn't the case with networks, I think it really depends on the merchants experience to determine the amount of control they can handle. Would a merchant want to have control of system crashes, fraud, affiliate technical support, complaints from affiliates, or would they spend their time better running their site selling their service or product

· Affiliates are your own

No one owns affiliates! They are independent.

· You have Affiliate contact details

This is true with some networks aswell

· No commissions taken from Affiliate earnings allowing you to offer a higher %

Only if the merchant doesnt put a cost on his time.

· Small or no monthly fees

Again, if a merchant doesn't need to earn a wage while they are running their program then you are correct

· Versatile and adaptable to your specific website needs

This is also true from most networks, in fact i know of merchants that have had sytems intergrated just to suit their needs

· Integrates with virtually any type of order system

Same with networks

· Offline affiliate tracking
Same with networks

· Affiliate links count towards link popularity
Would you guarantee that

· Potentially greater tracking accuracy

You havn't done much research on basic information, so I don't know where you got this information from

· Private affiliate networks
Is their no benefit to working with a network that can expose you to thousands of affiliates?

· Affiliate program only advertises your sites.
But advertises it to who? it has no affiliates, and as the affiliates say, "they trust the networks"

· Any affiliate program promotions are specifically for your affiliate program, not for the benefit of an affiliate network as a whole.

There is no bonus here unless you have an affiliate pool to promote yourself to

I am glad this is open to discussion, but I think some research would be a good idea.

I think the most important issue for a merchant is to receive sales, as i would belevie this is why they are looking to use affiliate marketing.

So a slight twist to this thread but is the question from a merchant not going to be which one will produce the best results for them.

The merchants need affiliate support to receive sales, and from the affiliates point of view, you would want to trust that merchant, and the question I would ask, is why has the merchant chosen the cheap option and decided to do it themselves. I would be worried about getting paid!!

[allaffiliatepro]

Hi Simon,
Yes indeed research is key. You're knowledge of indy affiliate programs, the software capabilities, and the support you get from the software companies would seem to be lacking some what. Never underestimate the time I spend researching all areas of affiliate marketing. I'm very hands on.

I've commented on your comments. (hope this one doesn't turn out to long).

P.S. Sorry I haven't used the quote system it would have made the message even longer.


Affiliate Networks


Disadvantages
· Affiliates are not your own
Simon - As I said above, research would tell you that this is totally wrong, and ask the affiliates if the merchants they promote own them.
Responce - The comment is affiliates are not your own. Not affiliates are not owned by you. I can't own an affiliate any more than I can't own my girlfriend. But I can own the affiliate relationship.

· You do not have full Affiliate contact details (if any)
Simon - Again, there are networks that provide full contact details
Responce - I haven't come across a network that gives you all the affiliate contact details. Can you give me an example of one that lets you export every piece of information the network has about an affiliate to a spreadsheet or database?

· A lot of competition on the network
Simon - Competition is good for affiliates as it ensures they get a good deal. If a merchant can't compete, then no matter which option he takes it will not succeed
Responce - Remember the start of this thread. This is from the merchants perspective.

· High monthly fees
Simon - I would like you to describe the amount of high. these fees cover costs, Administration, bandwidth, support, consultancy, devlopment and the many other aspects of providing a service, if a merchant could provide this to a large number of affiliates themselves it would cost a fortune in staffing.
Responce - The cost would still be lower. If it weren't the networks simply wouldn't be able to exist. A network agent working on behalf of many merchants on a network simply cannot compare to an affiliate manager working solely for the benefit of one merchant. To a merchant with a small affiliate based the costs of running and supporting the program would be minimal.

· Large % takings from affiliate earnings
Simon - Again, what is large, be more accurate, you also have to remember that the network will only get these fees if they produce the results for the merchant.
Responce - If a site offered me 30% commission I would see that as large. If interest on a loan was 30% I'd see it as large. 30% of £10,000 is £3,000. If your affiliate payments are over £10,000 a month you could easily be employing a dedicated affiliate manager for your private affiliate program. We'll leave this decision up to the reader. It's a matter of opinion.

· Affiliate links do not go through your site
Simon - Could be a good thing if an affiliate is spamming!
Responce - It is optional, you could have the links coming through anywhere you like. You could have it on it's own domain if you so choose. Indy merchants often see links through their own site as a big bonus.

· Affiliate program must conform to often inflexible affiliate network commission structures
Simon - From my experience, networks are able to adapt to a merchants needs as they have their own development departments, would a merchant be able to re-write their indi software?
Responce - No that would be done by the affiliate software provider. After all any structure a network can do can be coded into indy affiliate software. If the merchant had programing experience yes they would often be permitted to make custom modifications.

· Any affiliate program promotions are on behalf of the network, not your program individually.
Simon - At least we know that the networks are activly promoting the merchants, and they have the affiliates to promote the merchants to.
Responce - Sorry I should have made this clearer, although it was covered in a earlier responce. It's in regard to affiliate promotions to new affiliates outside the network, when the network is talking to affiliate reps looking to signup new affiliates to their network. If a merchant has been on a network for some time and already exhaust the affiliate pool, these affiliates are most important.

· Leaving an affiliate network usually means loosing all your affiliates
Simon - This would depend on how good your program is and the netwrok you are with.
Responce - Are you saying networks are happy to transfer affiliates to another network if a merchant moves?


In-House Affiliate Programs

Advantages
· You are in complete control of the program
Simon - What makes you think that this isn't the case with networks, I think it really depends on the merchants experience to determine the amount of control they can handle. Would a merchant want to have control of system crashes, fraud, affiliate technical support, complaints from affiliates, or would they spend their time better running their site selling their service or product
Responce - ??? Where do I begin. Your responce would seem strange. With an indy program there are no barriers, you have access to everything instantly, you can make changes instantly. You don't have to leave a message and wait for the network to get back to you. You can do whatever you want without question or comment. With good indy affiliate software system crashes, fraud, affiliate technical support, complaints from affiliates, etc are minimal if not non existant. The huge majority of affiliates never contact a network or indy program.


· Affiliates are your own
Simon - No one owns affiliates! They are independent.
Responce - You would own the affiliate relationship. You would be the person or company they are dealing with.

· You have Affiliate contact details
Simon - This is true with some networks aswell
Responce - But not all networks. You also have all the stats and info on the affiliates apart from contact details.

· No commissions taken from Affiliate earnings allowing you to offer a higher %
Simon - Only if the merchant doesnt put a cost on his time.
Responce - lol

· Small or no monthly fees
Simon - Again, if a merchant doesn't need to earn a wage while they are running their program then you are correct.
Responce - You are not being billed for anything. The merchant can add up his own time, or that of his affiliate manager.

· Versatile and adaptable to your specific website needs
Simon - This is also true from most networks, in fact i know of merchants that have had sytems intergrated just to suit their needs
Responce - Systems integrated so that it looks like they developed the affiliate program themselves and aren't hiring from a network? An Affiliate program that only has the merchants branding on it? One where the affiliates you signup to your program don't get presented with lists of other merchants to advertise? ...

· Integrates with virtually any type of order system
Simon - Same with networks
Responce - I can't speak for other software providers, but you'd be surprised at what some of us can do

· Offline affiliate tracking
Simon - Same with networks
Responce - I dont think they all offer this. I haven't seen a network with methods to track offline promotions, and google doesn't bring any up. Maybe I wasn't to clear. This doesn't mean 'When some one who visits your site purchases offline over the phone', it means 'Enabling affiliates to hand out flyers or other traditional real world marketing techniques and get commission when a customer responds to the flyer and makes a purchase on your site'. Hope that clears it up for you.

· Affiliate links count towards link popularity
Simon - Would you guarantee that
Responce - It would depend on the affiliate software you are using and the linking method.

· Potentially greater tracking accuracy
Simon - You havn't done much research on basic information, so I don't know where you got this information from
Responce - You need to research into affiliate software and how much you can pull some of the packages apart and integrate bit's here there and everywhere. Maybe later this year we should have a tracking challenge and put it to the test. I know I'll be putting together a very interesting example site after Magnum is released.

· Private affiliate networks
Simon - Is their no benefit to working with a network that can expose you to thousands of affiliates?
Responce - It is listed as a benefit in the affiliate networks benefits section. It is a good benefit, no one can deny that. If you are are merchant with say 10 popular sites, then you could have your own private network for your 10 sites, sharing your won affiliate pool that you have built up.

· Affiliate program only advertises your sites.
Simon - But advertises it to who? it has no affiliates, and as the affiliates say, "they trust the networks"
Responce - As you should know a popular merchant has no problem signing up new affiliates that aren't already a part of a network or in house program. Smaller sites have to work harder, but with proper promotion and time affiliate numbers can soar. A popular merchant who works hard to promote their program can build up a strong affiliate pool in a few months. Don't forget an in house affiliate program is a long term (often life long) solution. It's not a quick fix or a despirate push for traffic.

· Any affiliate program promotions are specifically for your affiliate program, not for the benefit of an affiliate network as a whole.
Simon - There is no bonus here unless you have an affiliate pool to promote yourself to
Responce - Sorry this wasn't clearer for you. Affiliate program promotions to new affiliates. Like when you promote to an affiliate directory, or forums like this. Or run an advertising campaign including yoru affiliate program. Etc.

Simon - I am glad this is open to discussion, but I think some research would be a good idea.
Responce - How rude. I've done my research. And to point something out, what do you think this post is? Didn't you read the questions at the start? Maybe you should look up research techniques. A good one I've found is talking directly to the community you are researching. Get the jist? You seem to know a lot about networks, but not how indy programs work, or how affiliate software works. Maybe your advice would be better put to yourself.

Simon - I think the most important issue for a merchant is to receive sales, as i would belevie this is why they are looking to use affiliate marketing.
Responce - I don't think anyone would disagree with that.


Simon - The merchants need affiliate support to receive sales, and from the affiliates point of view, you would want to trust that merchant, and the question I would ask, is why has the merchant chosen the cheap option and decided to do it themselves. I would be worried about getting paid!!
Responce - You've lost me a bit now. Before you said running your own program woud lead to spiraling costs. Now your saying it is a cheaper option. Please clarify



Remember people, stay calm! Everyone is entitled to an opinon. But there is simply no need to be rude when people are conducting research.

No body want's another closed thread. Let's stay on topic.



Lyle

[justnozy]

Nice One Lyle

As one of the ones that responded negatively to the earlier post I have to say this a much more interesting & constructive thread.

There are many points mentioned that do not need my input & some excellent responses, particularly Silly Jokes, but one point ( can't resist )

Leaving an affiliate network usually means loosing all your affiliates

Can't really speak for everyone else but if I had a program/merchant that was working for me - I'd find you again!!

[a4uforummember]

It was very entertaining, but went way off topic.