Knowing when a niche really is a niche?

[Stavros]

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I know its not an exact science but how do you define a niche as being niche? And by this I mean in terms of search volume vs competition in the serps.

For example, lets say I whack a search term into Google, 6,040,000 results (searching "the web" as opposed to "pages from the uk" as it's default on my computer so I'm guessing this is what most people do?).
6,040,000 results. Cripes, this looks bad before I even start. Google's Keyword Tool tells me the term has a low search volume (...talk about useful!). I check Wordtracker's free tool and the monthly search volume is around 4. OK, I'm not an idiot... this definitely isn't a niche worth getting into.

So I try another keyword, 321,000 results in Google ...hmm. I put the search term into Google's Keyword Tool which tells me it has a low search volume (...although the little green bar is slightly longer than with the previous keyword, great!). I check Wordtracker again and the monthly search volume is around 80. I seem to be getting warmer, but how do I know if this really is a niche worth pursuing?

Two things, I remember reading somewhere that a niche market is considered to have less than 100,000 Google results? is this in the ball park?
Also, since Overture's keyword suggestion tool bit the dust I've found it difficult to equate search volume to competition in the serps. I was happy in the knowledge that Overture's results reflected 5-8% (or whatever) of Google's traffic, so could do the math accordingly. But Wordtracker just leaves me scratching my head as I have no idea how the search volume figure relates to anything meaningful... aside from which, I believe their free keyword tool is full of US results?

Or am I over-complicating things? Is discovering a niche really as simple as finding a search term with a nice long green bar on Google's Keyword Tool accompanied by low competition in the serps?
Don't get me wrong, as I said I know this isn't an exact science and there's an element of guesswork and assumption involved but any pointers would be great.

Mucho gracias

[findlite]

This is an easy one.

Its a keyword you have identified that although recieves a fair few hits a day 100+ doesnt actually have that much competiton.

I dont believe in niche as a genre of website. No matter what you do others are doing it too! However there a billions and billions of keywords out there and most people dont know how to rank high.

Long may the cat and mouse chase continue! The day when everyone knows how to rank in Google and can actually do it is the day I have to go back to work:tup

[smingle]

The best way for me to find a Niche is to use your own thoughts without research etc, may sound unbelievable but it works for me.

Just think like Joe Bloggs internet user and you will do fine.

True story

A client once came to me with a great idea that if he targetted a niche which was expensive watches (like £10k+ each) and there was hardly any competiton for this particular watch and he asked my advice to which I gave him a long explanation etc why it wouldn't work. He proceeded to go off an ignore my advice and build the site anyway.

After a few weeks he hit number 1 on google and was getting over 250 u/v a day for different keywords for watches which he had on his website.

So who was right ?
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It was me who was right, as he never got one sale through the site as people were obvioulsy using his site as a brochure, or to look at these particular watches etc, but had no intention of making a £10k+ purchase online, without even seeing what they were getting.

What was the long and short of the advice I gave him "Would you spend £10k+ online, on a website you had never seen before or a watch you hadn't seen in real life"

It isn't rocket science, so don't make too much of a mountain out of it and over complicate things - thing as a consumer, not as a business owner

[Stavros]

Yep yep, thanks for the advice, both of you. After I wrote the above I sat back in my seat (or bed as it actually was at the time) and thought, what a complete waste of ****** time. More action more thinking... less writing about thinking, hah.

[findlite]

But like smingle said, concentrate on low to medium end items and services that most people wouldnt mind buying online. Think shopping, insurance, finance products, holidays etc etc.......

Or if you offer a local service like courier delivery then do that too:tup

[accelerator]

It's so cheap to put up a website, I would just buy a domain name, whack up a few pages, and see how it goes. If it works, great ... if it doesn't, you haven't lost much and you can just try the next idea.

[Stavros]

But like smingle said, concentrate on low to medium end items and services that most people wouldnt mind buying online. Think shopping, insurance, finance products, holidays etc etc.......

Or if you offer a local service like courier delivery then do that too:tup

Thanks for the advice. I actually run a niche site with a healthy organic audience so the above is a given. Apologies if my original post now seems a little odd but I was just curious if anyone had developed an ultimate definition of niche, i.e. XX,XXX pages against a monthly search volume of XXX or more is what you're looking for. But then it's never that clear cut. Anyway I'm rambling.

It's so cheap to put up a website, I would just buy a domain name, whack up a few pages, and see how it goes. If it works, great ... if it doesn't, you haven't lost much and you can just try the next idea.

Couldn't agree more! As I said... less talk more action, I'm off to build some websites.

[tbp]

This is a very difficult one to answer, as it all depends on the particular field. What could be a great niche for a certain product wouldn't work at all for another product.

I would say go with your instinct, and experience plays a big part. I work with niche markets, and now when I`m choosing a niche I go with gut instinct which is usually correct. I can't specifically say what leads me to make the decision, its just a subconscious thing from having a number of niche sites and knowing the traffic and conversion figures for them. I did make a fair few mistakes when I started, but now my judgement is becoming more and more accurate.

If you build a site for a niche, and it doesn't work as well as you want, then don't waste time on it and go out, find another niche and build the site. However, DON'T take the original site offline, leave it up there as you never know whats going to happen.

As a example, I built a site last october which took me 4 days. It went live in the first week of October, and come the middle of January still hadn't made a sale. Yet in february I started making sales, and now they come in regularly with really good commission rates. Why has the situation changed? Got to admit I have no idea The site went in at number 1 in google and stayed there since, so theres been no change in the google ranking, and no real difference in traffic figures. So why it went from no sales to regular sales I don't know. (and its not seasonal either, before anyone suggests that).

This isn't an isolate case either, had a couple of sites do it. Others went from making regular sales to no sales, again unexplained. In the long term scheme of things though, it doesn't make a real difference, some start making sales, some stop making sales, it all balances out in the end.

Shows though that with niche sites, you do need to have a number of them, and keep adding new ones to keep upping your income. Don't get too tied up in whether a niche is going to be majorly profitable, if you have a site online its bound to make some sales over a year, even if the niche is really obscure.

[Grizzly]

I can agree with TBP.

I stuck a landing page up for a product and had nothing for about a 2 months, but I left it and moved on to other things, and now it gets sales pretty much daily. Its PPC also with barely any competition so nothing has changed really. Strange!

As for google results, take them with a pinch of salt, usually after a certain number of pages, the results are not relevant at all. One thing I never look at is the amount of results that come up for anything I google (unless its noticeably low), just whats on the first couple of pages in organic results and ppc, and see if I could possibly better them.

im still a complete noob tho!

[sgpratley]

I guess it's down to the level of competition. I don't worry too much about whether there's 10 results or 10,000,000 results, just whether I think I can beat the guys in the top 3 or 4 natural slots.

There has to be enough demand to make it worthwhile too, but a handful of searches per day is enough if you're the only player in the game.

[Stavros]

Thanks guys, interesting replies.

I guess it's down to the level of competition. I don't worry too much about whether there's 10 results or 10,000,000 results, just whether I think I can beat the guys in the top 3 or 4 natural slots.

There has to be enough demand to make it worthwhile too, but a handful of searches per day is enough if you're the only player in the game.

What do you consider tough competition, or rather how do you gauge it? I remember Stu (nichefather) mentioning this, as I recall he said if a wikipedia entry features on the first page for a certain query you've got good chance? Whereas if price comparison pages dominate the results it's not so easy.

[sgpratley]

Gut feel from trial and error I suppose! There are a few things that you can do that will beat the big portals though. A decent domain name and access to some original content that will make link building easier are two big ones.

[tbp]

I remember Stu (nichefather) mentioning this, as I recall he said if a wikipedia entry features on the first page for a certain query you've got good chance?

Can't remember exactly what Stu said, but I don't think this is the case. Im pretty sure he said that if there was a wikipedia or BBC link then it would be pretty hard to rank above them. This is definately my experience, if there is either then I generally won't bother with the niche and move on to something else.

Price comparison sites on the other hands should be pretty easy to outrank, as they usually only contain a list of products and prices, with very little content. As a result, a content rich site should be able to outrank them with no problems.

[Stavros]

Can't remember exactly what Stu said, but I don't think this is the case. Im pretty sure he said that if there was a wikipedia or BBC link then it would be pretty hard to rank above them. This is definately my experience, if there is either then I generally won't bother with the niche and move on to something else.

Price comparison sites on the other hands should be pretty easy to outrank, as they usually only contain a list of products and prices, with very little content. As a result, a content rich site should be able to outrank them with no problems.

My bad, what you've said makes perfect sense. Again, thanks for the tips.

[Stellar]

Can't remember exactly what Stu said, but I don't think this is the case. Im pretty sure he said that if there was a wikipedia or BBC link then it would be pretty hard to rank above them. This is definately my experience, if there is either then I generally won't bother with the niche and move on to something else.

I remember Stu saying that if the BBC is in the top 3, he generally doesn't bother because the BBC is such an authority that it is hard to outrank.

I'm not so sure about Wikipedia though.