Blushingbuyer Program Closing

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Personally, I think you've been a tad unfair on them, if you had contacted them first and they had still been unhelpful then I would have more sympathy with your rant (and I do know about ranting!)

I think he has, hasn't he? ...

I have spoken to the netowrk directly, their responce was underwhelming to say the least, they even admitted that they were aware that one the the scum suckers was known for brand bidding! Yet they hadn't got rid of them. (Maybe because they still get their override?)

I think that's what's made Steve so annoyed. He's been paying AW a healthy sum, and yet they seem reluctant to firmly stamp this stuff out, despite knowing what's going on.

Question: has the "brand bidding scum sucker" () now been removed? Doubt it.

BTW, I have no personal experience with AW (or this merchant) - so I'm not siding with anyone, just commenting. But I do feel Steve's frustration, as I have to compete (as many of us do) against the same affiliate scum he talks of.

It does feel sometimes that a blind eye is often turned to these dodgy practices. (again - speaking generally here).

[getvisible]

Steve,

I would suggest that if you have issues with the management of the campaign by AWin then you should contact them directly. This kind of misguided rant ona public forum does nothing for the industry that we all work in.

Matt

I take the opposite view (I'm starting to worry about myself always taking the opposing view).

I think its great that Steve has said this.

Too often affiliates say we shouldn't talk about things because of the "damage it does to the industry" (I remember Kieron saying that when I was discussing brand bidding). My view is that we should be open and honest about the ills in the industry - only that way can we improve it for the good of all.

Letting some affiliates get away with things because we don't want to have an open and frank discussion will encourage the proliferation of those tactics and then we'll get 10,20,30 merchants all turn round and say the same thing when they realise what some affiliates are actually getting up to.

Its better to discuss the matter now, before its too late.

[oki-ni]

Hi Guys,

I think the key thing is that this is still a relatively new and developing industry and a lot of firms see affiliate marketing as just one channel and as such they run the programs accordingly.

Affiliate marketing can’t be seen as just one channel, there are several sub channels that need to be fully understood by the merchant before they start the campaign. Such as
Ppc
Cash back
Voucher
Pure content
Comparison
Shopping directories

Primarily this misunderstanding and lack of education as to how to correctly manage the program can lead to some nasty surprises in the way you think and the way your program is actually promoted by affiliates.

I think when merchants understand that we have several types of affiliate models and that each can impact you as a merchant in different ways we will start to see some improvements. I guess it comes down to education and experience.



Best regards,
Richard
Affiliate Manager
Richard@oki-ni.com
+44 (0) 207 6089100

[jonsp]

I take the opposite view (I'm starting to worry about myself always taking the opposing view).

I think its great that Steve has said this.

Too often affiliates say we shouldn't talk about things because of the "damage it does to the industry" (I remember Kieron saying that when I was discussing brand bidding). My view is that we should be open and honest about the ills in the industry - only that way can we improve it for the good of all.

Imagine you're a merchant with a good offer for consumers. You hire a web design firm to get a nice web site up to put your offer to the public then hear about this thing called affiliate marketing. You do a search and probably find your way to this forum - there's a bunch of guys arguing about who gets commission in a voucher code situation. Then there's networks who don't respond to threads about brand bidding. The average merchant is probably going to think I want no part of this.

This "industry" should be about incremental sales - but what percentage of money made by affiliates is incremental sales vs clever tricks to get a commission. Maybe 20%?

[getvisible]

The average merchant is probably going to think I want no part of this.

This "industry" should be about incremental sales - but what percentage of money made by affiliates is incremental sales vs clever tricks to get a commission. Maybe 20%?

aren't there enough "average merchants"?

on your other point, I completely agree with you.

[gamer1810]

Hi Guys

I would just like to throw my 2 p worth in..

As a potential merchant (I am looking to start an Affiliate program soon), I want to see discussion about these less savoury aspects, as this is the only way I will understand the pitfalls.

My view is that all decent affiliates should want to get the type of behaviour stamped out, because ultimately it will damage the industry and drive merchants away..

And by the way if I found out that 20% of my sales through affiliates were down to "clever tricks" and not incremetal sales I would be p*ssed off!

[steveaich]

Hi Guys


And by the way if I found out that 20% of my sales through affiliates were down to "clever tricks" and not incremetal sales I would be p*ssed off!

So if it was 20% incremental, and 80% clever tricks you'd be really p*ssed off then!

(It's not quite that bad, but I'd say 20% may be an underestimation.)

[KGP]

Steve why dont you try again why another network (as i dont think you would like to try again with AW) like webgains or por ?

ok lets say they (AW) didnt treat you fair why dont you try with another one to see if its better for you, i am sure based on your experience you can negotiate a good deal (when it comes to fees) and thus not spend a lot more than you spent with AW.

[Fruit_and_Veg]

Of course talking about it is a good idea. Trying to dress AM up as perfect for newbies is not only disguising the truth but will also result in a huge shock for the newbie once the toes have been dipped in the water.

I'm an affiliate. I want to hear what is dodgy so I can steer clear.

Top marks to Steve for sticking his head over the pulpit. Would be nice if more did it. Who else will keep networks on their toes other than merchants? There's no-one.

A public outing of these affiliates would be good even though it would turn into some kinda lord of the flies, mob rule mess...at least other networks and merchants could scrub these dodgy affiliates (you know, if they're not big earners ). Networks could privately share this info to avoid the catawaling.

[gamer1810]

So if it was 20% incremental, and 80% clever tricks you'd be really p*ssed off then!

(It's not quite that bad, but I'd say 20% may be an underestimation.)

Too right!

If its any concilation, this thread has been really useful in terms of highlighting for me, a soon to be newbie Merchant, some of the potential pitfalls...

[Dazza30]

Lets face it this industry is like no other, anyone can become an affiliate and i mean anyone.

I dont know what the figure is but the majority of affiliates ive spoken to online since becoming an affiliate myself have no experience of web design never mind marketing or seo etc.

This can lead to desperate affiliates turning to black hat or whatever you want to call it methods to earn their crust.

I assume this kind of issue has been addressed by the affiliate marketing council? and if not why ?

Should there be some kind of standard training affiliates could undertake to educate them in accepted working practices? i dont know, it would probably be impossible to implement.

[csn]

Should there be some kind of standard training affiliates could undertake to educate them in accepted working practices?

No.

As you say, affiliates can come from all walks of life. I imagine training being impossible to police and monitor.

Personally I think the quality of the affiliates can be determined by the style of management. A proactive manager will take the time to understand what websites affiliates run and where/how their brand is being promoted.

A lack of management, or misguided management, means a free-for-all as affiliates can do what they like.

At the end of the day affiliate programmes have to be profitable to exist. But it seems that some merchants don't invest money into making sure affiliates are well managed. I know it's a catch 22 (it costs to have an affiliate manager and costs not to have one) but this should realistically be factored in when deciding to run such a scheme.

I'm not saying that affiliates shouldn't be blamed. Some are great at what they do and add value to the brand. Some are in it for themselves and don't care about adding said value to the brand. Without proper management, this can and does go on.

So instead of a training course for affiliates, can it not be true that it should be the merchants that should be attending a course, educating them on how they control and run a successful affiliate program?

[Dazza30]

So instead of a training course for affiliates, can it not be true that it should be the merchants that should be attending a course, educating them on how they control and run a successful affiliate program?

Isnt it a networks job to look after the affiliate's and the merchants programme, just like its googles job to deliver advertising and the policing of it.

Of course a merchant has to compile datafeeds etc and decide on who they do or dont want on their programme etc.


Maybe the larger more established affiliate's could give something back to the industry, as an example affi gives out advice to those who request it.

But instead of a glut of advice with differing views and advice, a standard hand book (pdf) that could be offered to affiliates on the forum.

Surely the better the understanding both affiliates and merchants can have of their roles and accepted practices will only benefit the industry.

[hpops]

IAB UK : Internet marketing : All online guides : Affiliate marketing

Theres a great handbook and a variety of definitions and best practice guides available here.

The IAB's affiliate marketing council will be discussing a number of the issues in this thread at our next meeting.

[csn]

Isnt it a networks job to look after the affiliate's and the merchants programme, just like its googles job to deliver advertising and the policing of it.

Of course a merchant has to compile datafeeds etc and decide on who they do or dont want on their programme etc.

To some extent it's a network issue and I suppose that's where their brand monitoring tools come in handy.

As you rightly said, it;s the merchant who ultimately accepts or denies affiliates onto their program, which is why I think it's down to their management style.