sky up to their old tricks again!!!

[mattb811]

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I would disagree about there being "unseen, deceptive things" comment. That seems way out of line.

However the solution is as you suggest. If you are unhappy about certain elements of any campaign then you are completely within your right not to promote that merchant. If enough affiliates did the same then I'm sure you would see some changes.

[gunneradt]

I would disagree about there being "unseen, deceptive things" comment. That seems way out of line.

However the solution is as you suggest. If you are unhappy about certain elements of any campaign then you are completely within your right not to promote that merchant. If enough affiliates did the same then I'm sure you would see some changes.

Well do you think it's possible that every single sale I ever get - admittedly not many - is declined? A 100% declined rate!!! Ive had the whole gamut of reasons - cancelled, not last referrer (I think 3 minutes was the record), fraud, upgrade only.

Well Im certainly going to switch to Virgin - it just isn't worth it anymore.

[dc000000]

Sky have the absolute right to direct specific offers to specific partners based on where they think those offers will resonate and where the greatest return will come from.

If the site in question were providing such added value to the program then why not pay them £25 extra commission instead - I don't think anyone would mind?
The fact that they want to give one affiliate a head and shoulders advantage will arouse a fair degree of suspicion - and rightly so.

[gunneradt]

If the site in question were providing such added value to the program then why not pay them £25 extra commission instead - I don't think anyone would mind?
The fact that they want to give one affiliate a head and shoulders advantage will arouse a fair degree of suspicion - and rightly so.

it's more the fact that they didn't communicate it. I'm glad we all now know. I think the only way I'll ever be convinced that something isn't wrong with the sky campaign is when I put 'family sales' through. It will be a very interesting test.

[hpops]

Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Sky are hardly alone in using voucher sites to offer deals not available elsewhere - THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE FOR
Its equally absurd to think that because it exists, all users will find it and use it (I completely guarantee that the VAST majority of Sky's new sign-ups don't get it) a level playing field means equal opportunity to secure equal advantage. It doesn't mean the same treatment and deal to all publishers. Have you asked them for a better discount, have you generated sufficient volume to prove your case of having one.
And the dedupe thing, really? You honestly can't see a situation where by 17 minutes would seperate two clicks to the same site - really? I've got concrete examples of eight different sources being used in one hour on sites which get about 1/100th of Sky's traffic.

[dc000000]

And the dedupe thing, really? You honestly can't see a situation where by 17 minutes would seperate two clicks to the same site - really? I've got concrete examples of eight different sources being used in one hour on sites which get about 1/100th of Sky's traffic.

It makes you wonder who's leading who here - the blind or the more blind?
If the cookie is being over-written so many times then where is the real traffic coming from - it looks like a game of roulette with the fee earner being the guy who was at the end of the line - regardless of what he's done to be there?

What is it that you guys get paid for exactly?

[gunneradt]

Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Sky are hardly alone in using voucher sites to offer deals not available elsewhere - THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE FOR
Its equally absurd to think that because it exists, all users will find it and use it (I completely guarantee that the VAST majority of Sky's new sign-ups don't get it) a level playing field means equal opportunity to secure equal advantage. It doesn't mean the same treatment and deal to all publishers. Have you asked them for a better discount, have you generated sufficient volume to prove your case of having one.
And the dedupe thing, really? You honestly can't see a situation where by 17 minutes would seperate two clicks to the same site - really? I've got concrete examples of eight different sources being used in one hour on sites which get about 1/100th of Sky's traffic.

Every single time over a period of 12 months??? No, impossible. I think it also flies in the face of common sense. 9 out of 10 users signing up to sky will click, enter details and sign up - end of.

[hpops]

It makes you wonder who's leading who here - the blind or the more blind?
If the cookie is being over-written so many times then where is the real traffic coming from - it looks like a game of roulette with the fee earner being the guy who was at the end of the line - regardless of what he's done to be there?

What is it that you guys get paid for exactly?

Why this increasing tendency to criticise people's ability to do their jobs I've no idea but ho-hum.
I used an extreme example to make a valid illustrative point. I completely concur that the question of "where is the real traffic coming from" is one that needs answering. This is one of the many reasons we get paid :-)
There are severe limitations with the last click model but this is the biggie- the larger the brand in question and the more marketing channels employed (and, importantly deduped against) the more complex the user path to sale. Ipso facto the higher the likelihood of being declared "not last referrer". I would argue that there are best practice arguments about not deduping against natural search, brand PPC and brand affiliate PPC to create a balanced system of reward against value and I think that is some of the problem, but ascertaining the point of definitive value in a pay-per-performance model is an almost implausible task.
gunneradt - Your definition of impossible is looser than your definition of common sense! I honestly don't think that the SKY program is perfect, far from it, but presumptions from one's own experience are usually wrong. Only the underlying data can ever prove or disprove a hypothesis. I genuinely think that if you communicated directly with the SKY team they would share with you some of their findings - it may not change your preconceptions and it may be the case that they can't share enough but surely its worth a go?
Alternatively, as has been quite rightly said, if you are unhappy about any practice that a merchant undertakes, vote with your traffic.

[Barry]

I cant see why sky don't do their own 'voucher code' marketing directly through PPC - would save them hundreds of thousands!!!!

Instead of paying £100+ a lead they would probably be paying less than £1 - it does not make any sense!!

It doesn't bother me though as a voucher affiliate.

Ta

Baz

[gunneradt]

Why this increasing tendency to criticise people's ability to do their jobs I've no idea but ho-hum.
I used an extreme example to make a valid illustrative point. I completely concur that the question of "where is the real traffic coming from" is one that needs answering. This is one of the many reasons we get paid :-)
There are severe limitations with the last click model but this is the biggie- the larger the brand in question and the more marketing channels employed (and, importantly deduped against) the more complex the user path to sale. Ipso facto the higher the likelihood of being declared "not last referrer". I would argue that there are best practice arguments about not deduping against natural search, brand PPC and brand affiliate PPC to create a balanced system of reward against value and I think that is some of the problem, but ascertaining the point of definitive value in a pay-per-performance model is an almost implausible task.
gunneradt - Your definition of impossible is looser than your definition of common sense! I honestly don't think that the SKY program is perfect, far from it, but presumptions from one's own experience are usually wrong. Only the underlying data can ever prove or disprove a hypothesis. I genuinely think that if you communicated directly with the SKY team they would share with you some of their findings - it may not change your preconceptions and it may be the case that they can't share enough but surely its worth a go?
Alternatively, as has been quite rightly said, if you are unhappy about any practice that a merchant undertakes, vote with your traffic.

Perfect? You are of course using that term in a facetious way!!!. I've asked questions before with regard to rejected sales from Sky and got nowhere. I don't think it's possible for 100% of sales to be declined over a period of over 12 months now - my traffic to sky comes from banners and text links on an entertainment site - the last referrer stats being ridiculous time scales in most cases. It's even less likely given that Sky does not use voucher codes.

As I said, the family sales which I will be putting through soon will be the acid test - wouldn't you agree?

[dc000000]

There are severe limitations with the last click model but this is the biggie- the larger the brand in question and the more marketing channels employed (and, importantly deduped against) the more complex the user path to sale. Ipso facto the higher the likelihood of being declared "not last referrer". I would argue that there are best practice arguments about not deduping against natural search, brand PPC and brand affiliate PPC to create a balanced system of reward against value and I think that is some of the problem, but ascertaining the point of definitive value in a pay-per-performance model is an almost implausible task.

There are bigger merchants than Sky who don't suffer the same problems - and some of them actually do have voucher codes for people to find.

[dc000000]

I cant see why sky don't do their own 'voucher code' marketing directly through PPC - would save them hundreds of thousands!!!!

Instead of paying £100+ a lead they would probably be paying less than £1 - it does not make any sense!!

There is always a reason - enough said

[Barry]

One guess why they may have not implemented local tracking yet is because they can gather useful information that they would otherwise not be able to gather without having to manually cancel sales.

I dont know though? Do networks offer the option to use a callback script in 'test' or 'data gather mode' ie it does not appear in any affiliates account but will still show in their internal reports on the network? I cant recall seeing anything like that when checking merchants callback codes.


Your right I can see why they dont totally manage their online spend and invest in others to do it. There are plenty of reasons to employ specialists.

I can also see why there is a lot of cookie swapping going on as the sky order page does include the option to enter an 'offer code' giving rise to lots of people introspectively searching for codes. This will probably include lots of people ordering or inserting offer codes from leaflets and magazine advertising that they have seen at home or searching for deals on other money saving sites reknowed for having information and advertising on the best deals for consumers.

Ta

Baz

[hpops]

There are bigger merchants than Sky who don't suffer the same problems - and some of them actually do have voucher codes for people to find.

Yup, but here's the kicker - 99% of them dedupe at source - all of this stuff happens - affiliates just have no visibility.
Barry - I'm fairly sure whatever Dedupe solutions they are looking at will give them that visibility, certainly the majority of "high-end" solutions enable that.
Without being overly critical of the program - if you dedupe on brand ppc you will have an enormous amount of cookie swapping/overwriting. In fact, if you want to fight a fight thats both winnable through the application of logic and would make a large difference to earning potential on the program - there's your boy.

[gunneradt]

Yup, but here's the kicker - 99% of them dedupe at source - all of this stuff happens - affiliates just have no visibility.
Barry - I'm fairly sure whatever Dedupe solutions they are looking at will give them that visibility, certainly the majority of "high-end" solutions enable that.
Without being overly critical of the program - if you dedupe on brand ppc you will have an enormous amount of cookie swapping/overwriting. In fact, if you want to fight a fight thats both winnable through the application of logic and would make a large difference to earning potential on the program - there's your boy.

dont believe the deduping nonsense

one household, one sale

my 10 year old could sort that