Woolworths - Opportunistic closed bidding group on brand just before Christmas

[Julie H]

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Been monitoring Woolworths for the past couple of weeks and I’ve noticed my epc has taken a nosedive. Upon further investigation it would seem somebody has been BNB on the program, we’ve asked Awin and they’ve told us that yes, a trial has started on a closed PPC group.

I’m intrigued that no-one has told us that has been happening, I don’t want to line the pockets of other affiliates thank you very much. I don’t want to be in the closed group, but I reserve the choice to not be in competition on PPC with a closed group. I’m very surprised and disappointed that Awin haven’t notified affiliates that this is happening and I look forward to their response.

[John]

Our epc has also fallen off the cliff - Maybe related to this, or maybe not, but certainly six times less than it was last month.

I guess the drinks must be on the affiliate who is in a closed group of one allowed to bid on Woolies brand name during the xmas period -nice "work" if you can get it.

[renegade]

Hi Guys. Are you sure that's the problem?
I haven't ever really done much with Woolies but the recent changes to their program have encouraged me to up my activity so isn't it likely at least some of the EPC drop you're seeing is down to me and other affiliates actually promoting the program more actively?

[adamski]

Hi Julie,

Yes, a trial and I emphasise this is just a trial, has been implemented for a single affiliate to be allowed to bid on the Woolworths brand and this is coupled with a generic campaign.

Woolworths are reviewing other options outside of a 3rd party search agency and obviously this incorporates using the affiliate channel. Woolworths chose this particular affiliate themselves (it was not an option to tender) and after a meeting, felt satisfied with the agreed parameters which included a reduced commission for brand sales and a specified time limit to review the performance. As a network we too implemented additional elements to segregate sales and monitor performance.

Woolworths were already de-dupping their affiliate sales against brand PPC activity so I am surprised to note that your epc has dropped. Unrelated but relevant is the fact that Woolworths have also decided to work on a 100% validation system which I would have thought would have the opposite effect (i.e. increase your epc). Can I ask when your epc dropped?

Regarding announcing that a brand PPC affiliate is operating on the Woolworths programme, this would appear a bit pre-emptive considering this is just a trial. Our aim here is not to force the merchant's hand on whether they do or do not use affiliates for this type of paid search, but to let it run its course and allow both parties to analyse the results. If a decision is taken to run this for an extended period then we would ask the merchant if we could inform current affiliates.

The crucial point to note here is that the commission opportunity for content affiliates has not changed as a result of this as de-duplication was already in place on their paid search activity. As renegade rightly pointed out, there has been an influx of new affiliates wanting to work on Wooloworths since the positive changes made to the campaign and any fluctuations in EPC are probably related to this.

If anyone wishes to discuss this with me, don't hesitate to get in touch.

Adam

[Julie H]

Adam,

I'm in a rush to go out but a quick reply to yours.

I'm not satisfied you've answered my query on why affiliates were not notified, whether it be a trial for a day, a week or a month we should be notified. Transparency and all that! I will read & reply in full when I'm back in the office.

Jules

[Frostie]

Agree. Out of order. BNB & affiliate favouritism hits the headlines again?

I give up lol

[adamski]

Hi Julie

You have my assurance that if we ever implement something on a programme which we envisage will have an impact on the performance of its existing affiliate relationships, we will inform everyone in advance.

Many changes occur on merchant programmes, some of which may have an effect on the performance of existing affiliates but there is no obligation to announce these. In this instance, the introduction of a ppc affiliate on brand should have no impact whatsoever.

I would have thought that it would be a good thing for an affiliate (one you all know and respect) to have secured this trial away from a search agency. I truly thought this would be movement in the right direction for the affiliate channel and further proof of the power and transparency of CPA. Genuinely, am I wrong in thinking this? If this is about 'prior announcement' then I will raise concerns internally and see if we can revise our system to include a mandatory announcement for future situations.

Frostie - I understand we regularly supply you with voucher codes for your site. Is this also favouritism? Surely we favour all of our affiliates in one way or another but not to the detriment of each other.

Adam

[Frostie]

Frostie - I understand we regularly supply you with voucher codes for your site. Is this also favouritism? Surely we favour all of our affiliates in one way or another but not to the detriment of each other.

Nope as these codes are supplied to other affiliates too - not 1 single one!

Also, it helps keep us affiliates on your network, as when there are 2 networks to choose from, if network#1 doesnt get me a code, its likely that network#2 will so therefore you are keeping me, and my income, routing via your network. Although I appreciate the codes and the effort all network make in obtaining them (as some merchants can be stubborn), lets not forget that its also in your best interest at the same time.

PPC and BNB is a different kettle of fish. Always has been. Always will be.

But why not just communicate it? This is what I dont understand. I am not sure a network is in a position to say as to whether or not it will or may affect other affiliates - i believe the affiliates are in the position to decide this. Why not just email all affiliates saying you are trialing it, and you welcome any news on noticeable differences?

[adamski]

Frostie your reply is appreciated and whilst you may not receive bespoke codes we did initiate a voucher code protection system for both merchants and affiliates, ensuring that codes can't be stolen. There are further advances in this area scheduled for release shortly.

The point you make about service is equally valid for PPC and the decisions made by any merchant. Contrary to popular belief we're not always consulted and merchants do have the right to choose specific partners themselves. If they do, it is part of our service requirement to facilitate it.

As I have already said previously, I will discuss internally the possibility of prior announcement for future trials. Hind sight is a beautiful thing and we now have other options to consider but these may have to be balanced with the impact any announcement may have over the longer term if a trial were not to work and the programme were to revert back.

Your comment on whether a network is adequately placed to gauge whether it will affect affiliates concerns me as this implies we didn't give this enough thought. If any change has a negative impact on a programmes performance in one way or another then of course we will inform existing affiliates. But I still question whether this has affected performance since the programme was already being de-duped against paid search agency activity.

Adam

[Julie H]

Could do you elaborate on what you mean by de-duped. As my existing cookie was overwritten by the one used for the closed group ppc activity, so in effect it is actually effecting my sales.

Also, with regards to closed groups, anyone would have to be stuck on another planet not to realise the sensitivity on non disclosure of closed groups, so there has been plenty of hindsight

[Frostie]

Frostie your reply is appreciated and whilst you may not receive bespoke codes we did initiate a voucher code protection system for both merchants and affiliates, ensuring that codes can't be stolen. There are further advances in this area scheduled for release shortly.

So when my codes were being used by another affiliate only weeks ago, what happened? I wasn't made aware of it, nor were any commissions redistributed afaik. What exactly does this code protection do?

Hind sight is a beautiful thing and we now have other options to consider but these may have to be balanced with the impact any announcement may have over the longer term if a trial were not to work and the programme were to revert back.

Totally agree. I never expect a change to be implemented in 2 minutes, however I never expect any one not willing to be challenged over certain decisions, myself included.

Your comment on whether a network is adequately placed to gauge whether it will affect affiliates concerns me as this implies we didn't give this enough thought.

Not at all, but I truely believe the people who know best are the people it may affect.

If any change has a negative impact on a programmes performance in one way or another then of course we will inform existing affiliates.

Why even take the risk? Why not inform affiliates up front, be transparent, so there are no nasty surprises? Why wait for a change to have a negative risk in the first case? Surely risk anaylsis tells you to pre-empt this problem in the first case (See Prince2 - Risk Analysis 2.34...)

But I still question whether this has affected performance since the programme was already being de-duped against paid search agency activity.

Trying to explain it, and another affiliate has come up with the simplest of explanations, better than anything I could muster... "the cookie on ppc from closed group will over writes existing affiliate cookies"

Finally, how many times has COMMUNICATION and TRANSPARENCY been two of the biggest problems in this industry? This change hasn't been communicated, and wasn't transparent. All we want is upfront information in as big a time frame as possible on anything affecting a program whether it be tracking, ppc changes, creative etc... the more info we have, the better we can plan.

PS - thats NOT shouting, just emphasising

[adamski]

Could do you elaborate on what you mean by de-duped. As my existing cookie was overwritten by the one used for the closed group ppc activity, so in effect it is actually effecting my sales.

Prior to this arrangement, Woolworths ran their PPC through an agency. As with many of the brands that adopt a multi-channel approach, last referrer logic is always used meaning if the customer came through on the agency PPC campaign last, our tracking code would not appear on the Woolworths confirmation of sale page and the sale would be attributed to the paid search channel.

The presence of an affiliate in the search space makes absolutely no difference to this situation as last referrer logic is still used but effected in a slightly different way.

In short, it's true to say that currently your cookie would be overwritten by the one used by the appointed PPC affiliate, however if this space was controlled by the agency, whilst your cookie wouldn't be overwritten, Wooloworths internal analytics would attribute the sale to search and not affiliate so you would not be commissioned on the sale.

Adam

[adamski]

Also, with regards to closed groups, anyone would have to be stuck on another planet not to realise the sensitivity on non disclosure of closed groups, so there has been plenty of hindsight

We are acutely aware of the sensitivity around these issues and where the introduction of a brand PPC affiliate has the potential to change the dynamics of the programme for the existing affiliate base, we would most certainly ensure advanced warning is given.

That is not the case in this situation as I have previously explained.

Please note, when information about closed groups was previosuly requested from networks, we openly and promptly replied. The issue here relates to an announcement regarding a trial and for purposes of clarity, this trial is only for 1 WEEK.

[Qui Gon Jinn]

Time for me to interject, for what it's worth & what good it will do, I'll communicate our thoughts in a reports and will circulate amongst personal peers and further to our discussions/opinions, and that included me with you, this morning on msn, you will receive a copy as requested with an overview to those discussions.

If they are such a wonderful closed group affiliate, though this morning there were only a few, their grasp on generics is not impressive considering we are proactive in the same space on some of their dominant product ranges. Also re brand they are lazy not to even show on yahoo or msn, or is the minimum 10p bid on yahoo too much, cos it would create a slightly negative roi.

Now granted several other networks are considerably worse in this scenario, so let's not lose overal context, however AW has made great strides this year to be one of our favoured networks & thoroughly deserved their award (let's not take that away), however you know as well as anyone the score with closed groups & claiming hindsight is just baloney when you are familiar enough with the paid search landscape & need for transparency not being widely offered.

You have Snoopy others have access to The Grim Reaper The Grim Reaper » Affiliate Marketing Blog

Let's say I expected more in advocating a practise what you preach policy, I think on this occasion, the network were caught with trousers down, when they did perhaps have previous knowledge & should have known better. Consequently having been weighed & measured & then found wanting.

I can only empathize with comments above or possibly affected affiliates, as a network it doesn't effect you, in fact it's a real coup for both network over-ride & closed group affiliate. As it is forcing me to reconsider my position with this particular merchant.

Infact in that scenario, how do i remove ourselves from a merchant, but still be able to them in reports & ensure cookie is honoured & that pending sales & confirmed sales are duly credited .. plausible denialability? ..

Oh and playing the old tired record, if brownie points want to be won with the merchant stop ebay from bidding on their brand on msn & yahoo, they do know that? don't they?

[adamski]

Hi Paul,

Firstly for the record if this is about accepting blame, then I stand up and accept it. If it's an apology you want then I'm not afraid to apologise. Maybe I took too much of this on face value, I thought the issue I was having to defend related to why we didn't announce it (I didn't want anyone to think it was complacency) and why it wasn't tendered (it was purely the merchants choice).

Regarding performance, I don't know the intricacies of what was agreed and since this is a trial, it just covers Google. The trial may also involve other parameters which may impact on how extensive it is, its only a week long trial and went live Monday.

I've regarded the points raised as being valid and confirmed that this will be raised internally so we can adjust our approach in future.

I'm disappointed you think I don't practice what I preach. You've known me quite a while and therefore I'm quite confused that you think I've got something to hide here. I've always been open, honest and available to chat on any issue you've ever raised.

I stand by my previous statement that I would have ensured affiliates were made aware if I felt this would impact on their programme performance. I'm happy to hold my hands up and say this could have been handled differently but I'm not sure what more I can do!

Adam