Affiliate Association - Who should the membership consist off?

[Qui Gon Jinn]

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If an affiliate association was formed...Who should the mermbership consist off?

Personally, I think this is a fundementally important question, to ascertain how a body acts & responds to issues within the industry or any recommendations made to the marketplace & any codes of conduct which are incorporated.

[Barry]

Ohh god, the fundamental question really - there is no point in having everybody in - I mean the whole point of a unioun is to 'stick together' to fight a common goal. If your going to get everybody involved in would be more of an 'blob' than a union - I can't think of anything more descriptive!

It would have to be affiliates only - giving us a platform and a way of representing our cause to networks and merchants alike.

I mean Networks and merchants could become 'affiliated' with our union - at a cost

We would have such a record of promotion and provide such a big opening to a massive revenue stream for their programs and networks they should be gagging to get their selfs in tip top condition and be wothy enough to become 'affiliated partners' or our unioun!

We affiliates ARE their business without us - networks have nothing and without networks merchants have to compete in the market without the expertece of a thousand affiliates.

I think its only fair that we should be fighting for the some of the same contractual rights that compaies have in the real world - no more changing the terms of a program overnight - no more to being shunted off with no compensation when a programs tracking goes down or a program goes bust 'youve done the work you should get paid!'

And it could be useful for merchant and networks as well, they would be able to present ideas and get a good gauge of how they will go down before they launch their ideas. It would work both ways - we as affliates know that the sudden change in commercial environment could make you as a program have to cut back on commissions in the short term sometimes - but we want to hear reasoning not just a circular email - as it shown that this often gets peoples heals in.


*edit*
just voted and seen the results - can somebody else give a little feedback lol
*/edit*

[Brains]

Affiliate Association.....that says it all


BRAINS

[Supercod]

Lets have a different Association for Networks, Affiliates and Merchants and waste loads of time fighting with each other as it's such a huge industry that everyone knows about and when you talk to your mates and family they all know what your on about cause it's so massive

LOL ok taking the pee a bit but really I see it not as a "man the barricades" type of deal but a way for people to get together for the common good for all, to set standards, and push Affiliate Marketing. I don't think all Merchants, Affiliates or Networks will be up to being part of it but I don't think we should have an Affiliates only to man the picket lines crap, what's the point. Affiliates are the ones who have the power already, you have the power of choice and can promote who you like, sure something’s stink but now more than 5 years ago you do have a choice to work with people that give a crap and avoid the only out for themselves brigade. The only way forward is to bring all groups together and help each side understand what the other is doing. I know from last month where a bunch of us went to an E-Consultancy things that it's clear Merchants for the most part (but not all) don't understand what Affiliates are, what they do and how to work with them. That can be changed but us via them won't change a thing.

[Barry]

OK so I see your point and you have used the right wording in that case.

It will be and affiliate 'association' and not an affiliate 'union'

Just the word 'union' would scare off to many network and merchants! And your right its not the reason it is being set up. (or is it?)

Ah, but maybe one day! I don't care I'm still a member of a union (the GMB) ever though I'm self employeed!

[Qui Gon Jinn]

I have laid here deliberating for a couple of weeks on this one single question.

Running through various hypothetical case studies & scenarios. And topics which have taken place over the past couple of years on this forum, together with those ones that keep cropping up time after time.

Also what would in my honest opinion, that is...only my personal opinion, would provide the necessary catalyst to move the industry forward most effectively and efficiently.

I am not looking for any division between merchant, network, agent or affiliate....quite the contrary. However, I have sat on numerous roundtable meetings with networks & merchants, spent many hours on the phone, given too many reminders to mention for over 4 years...all purely from a selfless (not selfish) perspective, and all too often changes are not implemented or at the rate that is required. Until recently I decided, no more to what is effectivley free consultancy, especially if we don't see the necessary changes rectified. All too often I have had false assurances & promises.

These discussions mentioned are basically what I fear would be repeated if an association was a mould / formation of the three parties (affiliates, merchants & networks). These kinds of meetings already take place for at least 3 years.

Some parties "hear, but don't listen" is a phrase which immediately springs to mind & is incredibly frustrating. Basically some of the larger concerns generally don't have the resources, time or more importantly the flexibility to adjust or implement affiliate demands quickly & effectively..if at all..within the industry.

Initially, I immediately thought the all parties...should be members of an affiliate association.

But, if we look deep into the topics we discuss on the forum, how often are our cries ignored, some networks & many merchants don't even comment on the forum. One network has quoted to me on several occasions in person, that because they are a plc company they can't respond on a forum...

What total poppycock !!

So what makes me think they would be anymore committed to an Affiliate Association, absolutely none!

The worry is that an Affiliate Association will be just a way of keeping important / pressing matters tied up in bureaucracy & supressed...going around & around in circles & become a toothless divisory (internally divided) body.

However, I don't think affiliates will ever be truly be taken seriously unless they can actually stand up for themselves...or a organisation that solely represents them. These are the guys & girls who are truly at the forefront of affiliate marketing, those who can help regulate, standardise 7 shape the industry as well as effectively pushing for the much needed changes.

How can a collective decision or mandate be made on behalf of affiliates if merchants & networks are members? Otherwise how can affiliates only as collective privately discuss matters pertaining to an individual merchant or network with all the other parties being privvy or what if affiliates as a collective wanted to make statements to the media etc etc etc....

Of course the door is always open for networks & merchants...which is has to be....Perhaps at some stage the affiliate asociation can issue some kind of kite mark for recommended & trusted merchants & networks.

Now with a few network's employees, merchant affiliate managers & agency representives who also subsidise their income as an affiliate..their input from their experiences in their day vocation would too be beneficial for any Association and hopefully can be encouraged to be members.

Basically I vote for an Affiliate Association just for Affiliates, I want an Affiliate Association to be a professional, responsible & representaive body which isn't a lip service or a numpty that blows hot air, but something with actual teeth & balls by being a recognised body which is the catalyst for moving the industry forward.

[drivetowin]

This point has been argued out before on this forum a few times - but is still a valid question.

I have listened carefully to the arguments for an affiliate association purely for affiliates from a number of affiliates but to my mind an affiliate association solely for affiliates would be nowhere near as effective as an association embracing the whole affiliate industry for a number of reasons:

1. If the association is to create codes of conduct for affiliates, merchants and networks, all parties must have input to the creation of those codes of conduct otherwise why should they abide by them. As an example, an affiliate association made up purely of affiliates may set commercial terms which would be unacceptable to any merchant, or call upon the networks to implement something which is either technically or financially totally unfeasible to achieve. With an association comprising of everyone, if 90% of merchants say yes to a particular code of conduct at the creation stage and adopt it, it is for the other 10% to put up or shut up.

2. Arbitration - it is important that the association is able to arbitrate in disputes between all parties. This can only be done if there are members from all parties with sufficient experience to pass judgement. Again, if all are members then there is an obligation to accept arbitration - if its for affiliates only why should a merchant or network accept the arbitration process, and what about disputes between merchants and networks or are we saying we dont care about them.

3. Training and Education - one of the key elements of the associations reason for being is to establish training for newbie affiliates, affiliate managers, and anyone else who needs/wants it. Again, training of affiliate managers (or at least the creation of training material) is best done by other widely respected affiliate managers - yes an affiliate association could probably do all of the affiliate facing bits, but what about all of the management facing bits - would you know how to convince the board of a plc to give you more budget, do you know the best way to get creative agencies to produce creative on time and within budget - I sure as hell know that I dont.

4. Part of the associations aim is to eliminate bad practice whichever part of the industry it is in, and yes that may mean exposing some bad affiliates and helping networks/merchants with the detection of fraudulent affiliates - would an association made up solely of affiliates be as willing to do this.

5. Outbound promotion of affiliate marketing. The association should seek to drive the whole image of affiliate marketing forward, both to industry, the media and the consumer. There is a lot of work to do on all fronts. Many merchants simply do not understand how affiliate marketing should/does work - which brings us back to education. The media (both mainstream and specialist) barely acknowledge that affiliate marketing exists - yet when it is contributing 30%+ of online revenue for a good number of merchants should not any article on e-commerce at least mention affiliate marketing too. And for the consumer its about building trust all of the way from the affiliate site (or ppc ad) through the network to the merchant site. There is still a lot of mistrust about buying online - it is for the whole industry to work to educate the public about that (and especially that not all cookies are bad and that spyware detection software does not get it right 100% of the time) - a more trusting public will buy more product, and make us all more money.

6. I dont see why the presence of a merchant or a network in the association prevents discussion of issues concerning them or the issuing of a press release condemning what they have done. I have always adopted the view (though I know some prefer to hide behind the anonymity the forum gives them) that I do not write one word here I would not be prepared (and often have) said to the merchant or network face to face. In the recent ASOS debacle I would have openly welcomed the opportunity for a face to face discussion with Nick and Gavin, and my opinions would have been no less forthright than I have put forward on the forum. If the majority of the association felt that what a merchant / network or affiliate had done was unethical, the association would have the balls as you put it to speak out publically about what had happened - no one member will have the right to gag the association from speaking out.

For all of the above reasons, the affiliate association currently in formation will have membership open to affiliates, networks, merchants, affiliate marketing agencies/consultancies and anyone who can demonstrate a genuine commitment to driving affiliate marketing forward.

But dont worry, it certainly wont be toothless, and it is not going to just be a talking shop or somewhere decisions take forever to be made. Please wait until the full framework is issued in about a months time before you make judgement.

The framework will give everyone the opportunity to comment.

Someone said in another thread "united we stand, divided we fall" - a true sentiment, but united has to include everyone.

Finally, while having put all of the time, effort and money into its foundation I intend to lead the association for the first 12 months following its formation, after that I will put the leadership up for open election - if you dont like the job I and the association are doing by then feel free to vote me out and replace me with someone else.

[Elaine]

I always thought that an Affiliates Association should be just that - an association of affiliates.

Its aims purely to establish a professional body which would assure affiliates (future members) networks and ALL merchants that we had agreed to abide by a broad code of conduct - by which I mean that not all affiliates would agree that some practices are wrong - but there will be areas where we would all agree.

If an affiliate was found to be disregarding this code - they would be removed from the association.

I am sure that many many merchants are wary of committing to an affiliates scheme simply because they worry they will become 'party' to spammers or have problems with securing their kewords etc.

Plus joining some networks can be very expensive - this initial contact could be offputting - how much easier if they could approach one professional body who would give impartial information.

And although you might get the majority of 'proven' affiliates and nearly all the networks joining - I can't believe for one minute that you'd get many of the larger merchants and the multi nationals joining and agreeing to a code of conduct - and for argument's sake what if they did - who's going to 'police' all this and how is it going to be paid for - especially when you throw 'training and education' into the pot. Setting up arbitration in itself would be time consuming and expensive.

An Affiliates Association could not impose conditions or codes of conducts on networks or merchants - but we could jolly well 'suggest' to our members that a certain 'network' or 'merchant' was out of order and recommend moving links to a competitor.

I'm sure the whole ASOS debacle could have been handled much better if their had been one point of contact where the issues could have been 'thrashed' out first ...

and to take this scenario further would ASOS - if they had joined the Association (which is very most likely when Jess was there) be then thrown out because they had seriously 'annoyed' some top affiliates and would that stop other affiliates from promoting them - NO.


And although I have the greatest respect for Keith I don't think I could be persuaded that his version of an Affiliates Association would work.

[drivetowin]

Elaine

I have great respect for you (and QGJ) too and this may be one area where we simply have to agree to disagree.

I guess only the fullness of time will see whether the model I have proposed will work - all I can say is that I havent plucked it out of the air - its been the result of hours of discussion with other ecommerce trade organisations, the networks, and major merchants - to see what they would be prepared to join and respect (and abide by) the codes of conduct on. You would be surprised how many high street name merchants (and major online vendors) have already expressed an interest in joining, and accepting that there would be terms they would have to abide by.

The widespread feedback from the networks and merchants is that they would only be interested in supporting, backing and recognising an association which represented the whole industry - it is time we all put the 'them and us' philosophy behind us - its not about them and us, its about the industry as a whole.

And yes, it is going to cost money - clearly as in all things a lot will depend on how popular it is and so it is not currently possible to give a precise idea of membership fees but at the same time by having networks and merchants involved it helps to spread the financial burden across the industry - having an association purely of affiliates would not necessarily make it any cheaper to run. Suffice to say that I am anxious that membership fees should not be a barrier to entry to any affiliate - I have heard on the grapevine rumours that the fee for affiliates will be zero or that it will be over £500 a year - while I cant set a definite figure yet it wont be free but it wont be anywhere approaching £500 a year either.

I think while we may disagree we are actually closer than you think in our outlook - surely my model would also achieve your aims of merchants having a single point of contact?

You are right when you say that an affiliate association as I've proposed it could not impose things on merchants or networks - but then I dont quite see how an affiliate association made up of just affiliates would be in any position to impose things on affiliates either - ultimately no organisation can force people to join (the days of the closed shop are long behind us) so if someone chooses not to join a group, or simply resign their membership that is their choice.

Re the ASOS situation, as I have said in another thread, if the association were in existence it would have sought to negotiate and advise them before they implemented their changes to prevent the situation which has arisen arising in the first place.

[Elaine]

but then I dont quite see how an affiliate association made up of just affiliates would be in any position to impose things on affiliates either

That's the whole point - we wouldn't be imposing anything on anyone - hopefully we would be saying ...

this is what it's all about

this is what it's going to cost you

this is how we are pro-actively promoting it and assuring possible merchants of the effectiveness and safety of affiliate marketing

here are a few simple common sense 'rules' which you agree to abide by

and in return we will let you know if there's a tracking problem with any merchant,

if a merchant/network is not paying as and when they should,

if a merchant/network is flanneling us and being 'conservative' or 'creative with the truth - we will investigate and let you all know asap.

if there's a misunderstanding on which keywords can be bid on - or if some affiliates have 'special rights' to bid - we'll clarify it.

Of course merchants and networks want to be part of an 'Association' - they want to have an input and influence any major decisions - but the bottom line is profit - THEIRS NOT MINE.

[drivetowin]

Elaine

I'm 100% in agreement with what you're saying there - all of those things are things that I hope the association will be doing - I dont see that having the merchants and networks as part of the association makes those aims less achievable.

The model I'm proposing just adds in some benefits for merchants and networks too. It is easy for us as affiliates to make the merchants and networks out as the bad boys but some of the things affiliates do to defraud merchants and networks would make your hair curl - if the industry is to prosper it is just as important to help weed those things out too.

Yes it is all about profit, but lets not forget that if merchants dont see affiliate marketing as a profitable route to market they will take other routes to market and we all lose. Also if networks are profitable (and some make less profit than the affiliates they support - network overheads are huge in comparison with yours or mine) - they are more likely to invest in new technologies which again will benefit us all.

Its all about outside perception, some of the mud slinging towards merchants on this forum (and ok I'm big enough to admit the ASOS thing got me sufficiently annoyed that I flung more mud than I should) and entrenchment of the them and us attitude does little to persuade the likes of Ryanair, Easygroup (excluding Easycar), Eurotunnel, MBNA, Mint card, Nectar, Sainsburys, Walmart etc that affiliate marketing is a professional route to market that they should be actively exploring.

[John Jupp]

An association for affiliates should be just that. Merchants and networks could join an affiliate association in a non voting capacity and purely as a mechanism for consultation.

Full members would agree to abide by the associations published rules and the association would need to demonstrate that it is representative of the majority of UK based affiliates in order to legally claim to represent affiliates in the UK.

Funding a properly constituted association is a full time occupation and one of the many manners in which a properly constituted and registered association could raise funds is for the association itself to be an affiliate listing 2 tier schemes which members could join. Members would pay an average of about £15 a year each as a membership fee. This is about the same as for joining a political party. This then would provide a constant revenue stream for the association and because the association would be deemed to have a political status, it would be exempt from certain taxation requirements as it would be set up to lobby for and on behalf of the affiliate industry.

Members would be required as in a trades union, to elect representatives who would receive NVQ Level 1,2 and 3 training in industrial relations. Payment for this comes from central government funding and is enshrined in trades union legislation. The association would also retain lawyers for advice.

The association would then be able to conduct itself on individual or collective grievance within the industry, discuss improving terms and commissions with merchants, fight to maintain standards in the industry, educate merchants in affiliate needs and provide a point of contact for day to day commerce. An association properly constituted and funded could assist UK business by helping to maximise revenue stream which can only benefit everyone.

[loquax]

Couple of points that have been rattling around the old cobwebbed brain today...

1. An affiliate association should be about affiliate issues, driven by affiliates for affiliates. A vehicle to approach (or be approached by) merchants/networks/agencies that is recognised by merchants/networks/agencies. If such an association accepts network/merchant/agency membership so be it, but they should be there to learn, listen and contribute - not to drive the vehicle forwards.

2. The number of high street merchants interested in such an association to me is meaningless (sorry Keith). An affiliate association on paper would have more credance if "85% of uk affiliates are backing the call for the formation of a association" - currently how many uk affiliates have voiced an opinion on this issue (and i mean voiced, not just gone 'oh i best join i bet get an extra % commission)???

It doesn't matter after that if you have 1 merchant or every high street store and major online brand. A handful of affiliates an association does not create, hmmm (Yoda time!).

Reading through the above - being brutally honest - the association at this minute seems to be more for the benefit of merchants/networks?

Also if brands are concerned about professionalism - they should be asking why are affiliates up in arms - easy answer because (some) networks bend over backwards to look after their interests first, merchants second and affiliates third (my opinion).

If networks did more to make sure programs ran smoothly and created a valid, transparent and active communications channel to affiliates - a lot of the ills and mud slinging would be dealt with because affiliates would be educated, and be able to respond in the needed professional way.

Also, if merchants are using "lack of professionalism" from affiliates as an excuse not to get involved with AM, then imo you have to question their desire to want to be part of it, because if they'd done their homework they'd find most decent affiliates (try to) work in a professional manner.

3. Merchant Training! Will the merchants be paying for such training and consultancy? Could merchant training be better undertaken by a consultancy group of experienced affiliates and managers? Should merchant training be done by the networks (if networked based) - surely there is a document somewhere that says "when joining network make sure you have a 468x60 banner and a 120x60 buttton as minimum creative. Oh and try and update it once in a while".? Personally I don't feel an association should be training anyone - pointing them in the right direction/literature/guidance etc... but on the job training should be paid for as it's an investment for the person's business (either affiliate or merchant).

Jason

[drivetowin]

Loquax

Good points - this thread is certainly providing very useful input and food for thought - and as nothing is set in stone yet (and wont be for a while) there is room to accomodate change as peoples opinions become clear.

First thing to say is that all of the merchants and networks I have approached so far have adopted the same viewpoint as you - that an affiliate association should have affiliates at its core and should be led by affiliates - they have no desire to 'take over' or take the driving seat - but instead to offer their input from their respective viewpoints. I feel though that this is best achieved by having them as part of the association rather than outside - whether networks and merchants would have voting rights is a key detail that has yet to be decided.

Its hard to judge how many affiliates really want an association, there has certainly been a mass influx to my inbox over the last few days but how much of that is a kneejerk reaction to ASOS and how much is just that ASOS has acted as the prompt for action is hard to tell.

Merchant Training may have been the wrong phrase for me to use - it would perhaps have been better worded as merchant education, i.e. guidance on best practice rather than one to one tuition.

[Qui Gon Jinn]

Already out there are are organisations that look after merchants interests like the internet marketing retail group IMRG etc etc.

Within the proposed model, please may I ask how the A4UForum for which Matt Wood created fits into the proposed model. For I strongly that every member who has contributed on this forum whether it be negative or postive feedback to something related in the industry has made their contribution in bringing the industry forward & shaping it at a faster rate hadn't it been around. Each & every member that applies to deserves to give themesleves a massive pat on the back.

And the A4UForum should be pivotol in any Affiliate Association which is created with Matts permission of course. Otherwise it might become fragmented.

Which includes the members, discussing the points & guidelines which any Affiliate Association should encompass. There should be a thread discussing each point individually then the nominated board of affiliate proposing a balanced drafting of those points forming a proposal for all members in a time frame to agree or disagree.

KBudden, please don't get me wrong I appreciate the efforts you have gone to so far. But we already have an already a divided opinion on the fundamental question.

I don't think a network would to discuss their private business which affects affiliates as a whole with other networks present.

Merchants and networks could join an affiliate association in a non voting capacity and purely as a mechanism for consultation.

With the intent of embracing the networks / merchants opinions in acheiving a workable solution as long as each member is aware of what's going on every step of the way. Let's take the ASOS example what would we rather have open debate & honest opinion or pretend it never happended behind closed door consultations. A meeting could have been arranged open to any intrested affiliate member inviting the merchant & network (only TD & POR). But it would have nothing to do with the other networks like DGM, AF, AW, BUYAT, so why should they be present). And I am sure TD & POR wouln't want those unrelated networks present either. And any strong suggestions put forward to ASOS from the association would have nothing to do with the unrelated parties..but it wouldn't be able to do that unless is was an affiliate only membership.

What if an individual affiliate had a problem with a single network or merchant. It's not the unrelated parties business to know. How many times has an affiliate had a problem whatever it may be..like lost tracking..and was told he was the only one, then when asking the forum or affiliate friends found out it wasn t so...hands up!

There are members on this forum who are not so vocal, but have wonderful ideas & common sense when speaking privately..

Elaine..I totally see where you are coming from.

Jason..good & interesting points as always

the association at this minute seems to be more for the benefit of merchants/networks?

I do agree, but with the affiliates as the driving mechanism hopefully, everyone shall benefit.

Its hard to judge how many affiliates really want an association

Why not place a poll up, hasn't there been one already Yes, No, Don't Mind, Don't Care. or a scale of 1 to 5...5 being the highest. How keen are affiliates for an association. But I thought that had been established.