"Declines" or as we call them, GARBAGE

[Michael_Anthony]

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I am astounded at the apparant traffic on here for "declines" - these are typically cheap as chips rubbish that would otherwise end up in the physical or digital dustbin of nearly every high volume consumer finance company. Has the customer agreed to some sort of DPA policy starement? Have they received and agreed to the FISA consumer warning? Are they FSA compliant? Have they been told that their personal financial information will be traded in a never ending chain of bottom feeders, like some low value chips at a casino?

NO. This traffic, much like the current trend for "hot keyed" leads, and offshore call centre leads, is almost worthless. Buy it and you can waste thousands and thousands of pounds whilst your call centre staff bug people that have already been bugged to death. Does it have any value at all? - possibly, as a mailing list, but that is all.

These "leads" are rubbish - the people that trade them the equivalent of online traders in waste matter. We have a team from the local council who collect our rubbish once a week - maybe we should do a deal with the council so that our affiliates can sell them all their "declines" rather than just chucking them away

Thank you. Rant over.

[123debtsolutions]

I absolutely concur. The answer is how do we stop it, or better yet render there services useless.
Simple answer...
I have just sent you a pm. Spk soon.

[axod]

These "leads" are rubbish - the people that trade them the equivalent of online traders in waste matter. We have a team from the local council who collect our rubbish once a week - maybe we should do a deal with the council so that our affiliates can sell them all their "declines" rather than just chucking them away

As you should well know, somethings worth is determined only by how much other people are willing to pay for it. If people are trading them, and able to make money out of it, what's the problem? They are obviously worth something to someone.
If the worth has been inflated, you can be sure the bubble will burst at some point.

Seems like either you're trying to convince yourself that the leads are rubbish, or else you're jealous that you're not part of it.

Having said that I don't touch the finance sector with a barge pole so what do I know

[Michael_Anthony]

The problem is that the data is illegal, the practise immoral, and the people that are prepared to pay for them are being financially raped through their naive belief in the seller's promises.

And I have never been jealous of anyone that picks up garbage, although the local councils do a good job in rehabilitating ex-cons by employing them I guess.

Maybe I just have a problem with the terminology - but to me a dustman remains a dustman, not a "dealer in quality declines", or perhaps a "waste disposal resales operative" would be more accurate.

[poppett]

Just a two pence worth from someone who has worked at both ends producing leads, at major brokers and worked at buying data from Large corporate companies who earn millions from compiling it and selling data. It has to be looked at as per the OMG thread in that not all brokers have the same panel of lenders, not all large brokers have very good undewriters that can find a deal for a client, as most just say you dont fit our criteria and reject or decline the deal.

A persons life can change in an instant and there needs also can change, old data with the clients opted in can create, secured,unsecured completions, debt management, remortgage, bank account, credit card and varius other types of business. At a company I worked for years ago if it failed on credit score an underwriter looked at it as a human not a machine and deals were made completed and paid out on.

Shutting people down and saying that they trawl the gutter for garbage is not correct, most people in the finance industry wouldnt pay the stupid figures of £100-£300 for a secured loan that could well be garbage, as proved in many cases. But may buy old data and do what a proper broker would do and find a deal for the client.

[tonyhessey]

I like the way Michael bad mouths people who sell loan decline data but in another thread say he's looking forward to working with a person who sells it, a lot of it.

Anyone else think that's strange?

[axod]

And I have never been jealous of anyone that picks up garbage, although the local councils do a good job in rehabilitating ex-cons by employing them I guess.

If someone can pick up garbage, then sell it, that's pretty impressive - I'd be jealous of them (In a business sense). I do see what you mean about it being immoral/questionable etc, but it happens everywhere - selling extended warranties - it's selling an essentially worthless bit of paper that is rubbish. Selling CDs - bit of plastic worth 20p. Bottled water - probably came from a tap round the corner, but sells for more than oil.
We're all sold rubbish and told it's great That's business! As long as someone is willing to buy it for the price you put on it, there's no real problem.
Unless they find out it really is rubbish (Look at ratner the jewelers ).

[poppett]

totally agree with you axod and previous people. Ther are many times people get ripped off in life But finance isnt one of them not with all the rules in place, dpa , fsa guidlines etc. When these people are called by big and small companies they have to carry out DPA checks to see if the client agrees to proceed furher with the enquiry. You could say that a junk merchant or a vehicle breakers are also ripping us off as they are selling old stuff not brand new. But some people cant afford to buy brand new all the time and from the big boys who put ther inflated bit on top for doing nothing . Business's are only in business for one thing to make money. As long as no rules are broken and it not illegal in the business they trade whats the problem. People have choices, and some people just like to have double standards. If not how come a lead is £200 when they dont have many to sell but that the people on high drop the price when they have lots to sell. People need to let people do what they do best.

[steve333]

Shock horror, I am about to agree with Michael.

It is garbage and anyone who says longer term that they are benefiting from this is venting plasma from the wrong oriface. It is a circulation of useless data maybe 1 in 1000 will make something from it, it is crazy to think otherwise.

Two weeks agow we were approached by a Adverse Mortgage broker requesting 300 declines / week so naturally admin looked at it. Talk about false economy for £3/lead, I still cant get my head around this I have been dealing in insolvency AKA (Bad Debt) for ever this type of client base is practically impossible to service properly.

I am not writing them off, it is a difficult world to inhabit but it is just a plan fact they are *****d financially.

Having thought hard about it the only factual outcome for use I can imagine regarding this type of lead is possibly by fraudulent means via mortgage or other, all the initiated know exactly what I mean and that of course is illegal.

Other than that they are less of a financial trading instrument than US Junk Bonds of the mid 80's

There we go... I feel better now !

Regards,


Steve333
L2U.

[axod]

It is garbage and anyone who says longer term that they are benefiting from this is venting plasma from the wrong oriface.

Then don't buy them, and leave people who wish to buy them alone... Maybe they know something about them that you don't.
Some people think buying new cars is garbage since you loose about 60% of the value in the first 3 years... other people like a new car.
Each to their own I say.

[Michael_Anthony]

Poppet - I think your post refers to what are generally called "affinity deals" between brokers and lenders who pass data that does not fit their own criteria to each other and where, as you rightly say, the client has opted in. The consumer finance markets thrive on such legitimate data exchange and it was not my intention to suggest otherwise.

It's the trading of less leigitimate data, which for example quite often involves the customer being called with the offer of a Debt Management plan when they originally wanted a secured loan, or an IVA when they wanted to go bankrupt, or a credit card instead of a loan, etc. and where their personal details are bandied about and sold to the highest bidder with blatant disregard to their best interests that is the issue here.

[russell cpanuk]

The only people this type of data is useful for are debt management companies and fee charging unsecured loan brokers. So there is definite value to declined data.

The point “I think that is being made” is that under the OFT Debt Management Guidance 2001 (White papers) setting down the minimum standards, point 19a and point 19c states that that cold calling is not allowed within the industry. It also states in that referrals from another credit broker is not allowed, unless the client has given there consent to debt advice. So buying in data is not allowed.

Fee charging companies, have their own set of rules.

A very good friend of mine is in the waste disposal industry (commercial skip hire) He is one of the wealthiest people I know, both in monetary terms and contentment. “Where there is muck there’s brass” I understand they say in Yorkshire.

[123debtsolutions]

It all comes back to standardising the industry from the root.

Stricter rules to be adhered to by merchants, networks and affiliates.

There is a enough money in these industries for legitimate supplies and if regulated correctly the system in principal will flush out the "here one minute gone the next wannabe brokers/hot-key experts" whatever you want to call them.

[helpinhand]

tell me this,

if declines were garbage and admitedly there is lots of garbage out there, why would some of the uk's biggest most experienced debt management companies be spending litterally £100,s of thousands of pounds every month on them.

i suppose they just like spending and wasting money

[russell cpanuk]

Two points to answer your question!

Firstly the biggest and most experienced debt management companies are judged by how many clients they control, “not how well they manage people’s debts” a large percentage of client’s dis-instruct every month. Debt management companies need to gain a large percentage of clients each month, just to stand still. That’s why DM companies will buy in thousands of records each month. However by buying this data in, they are not adhering to the rules, setting out the minimum standards for the DM industry. (See my post above)

Secondly, which I think this thread is all about, is that most loan declines are recycled garbage. Allow me to expand. An applicant will apply for a unsecured loan, be declined for that loan and the details will be passed to a DM company. Then the DM Company will pass the details to usually a fee charging unsecured loan broker, who will mess the client around for a month or two, then sell that data to yet another DM company. Who will sell that data on etc etc etc.

The applicant details are sold as fresh declines from each company, which they are. (In a way) however, 12 months on from making the application, is not what I would call fresh.

Now let me ask you a question, if you made an application for an unsecured loan and your data was sold on to a DM company and so on and so on. How would you feel about the finance industry?