SEO blinded by the client list

[jess1]

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I am staggered by the amount of money merchants are spending on what they deem to be good SEO agencies. As most of you are aware, I’m the kinda gal that has to know.... if I don’t know how Search engines work and what it takes to get decent rankings, how can I post? I have spent a lot of months researching this area and I have to say I am shocked by my findings.
Merchant x knows nothing about SEO and goes on a hunt. The first thing Merchant x does is too google SEO Agents (after all if your SEO company is not ranked highly in the search engines, they can’t be any good or can they?) Next merchant x looks at the client list. Impressed with the client list, merchant x meets up with the SEO Agents sales man. To be very brutal here, if SEO sales man knew so much about SEO, SEO sales man would not be SEO sales man. Decisions have been made by merchants purely on client lists and the sales man. The chicken and egg bit... how do the clients of SEO Agency know that they are getting the best ROI for their cash... what do they measure their performance on? If they don’t know about SEO, how do they know the SEO Agent is any good?
Example Merchant X invests 8k per month, if SEO Agent they are with gets them 9k per month is this a good ROI? What if Merchant x had gone with SEO Agency No2? Who know a little bit more then agency 1 and could have got them 17k ROI.
What about the SEO agency that actually does more harm then good and get them banned in the SE's, yes this does happen.
I can count on one hand the SEO Agency's out there that can deliver a great ROI and funnily enough, you wont find them listed on google.

[CompareStore]

Like any service if I were a merchant and I was looking for a company to help me with SEO I would ask for at least 3 references to contact.
It's no different than trying to find, say, a decent builder - you need to speak to people who have used them and ask to see there work if possible.

I'm not suprised you're shocked Jess, there are a lot of comboys out there who have used "black hat" techniques to good effect for many years and have been able to charge a fair wack because of it. The trouble is, as you say, these practices are unlikely to help in the long term as the search engines are getting wise to it and find better and better ways to penalise sites that use such techniques (in fact they just ignore the technique in their calculation of rank).

[pricethat]

I know a number of seo companies that work on a commission only basis using subdomains on the merchants site. However this can end up costing the merchant much more as they tend to be very good.

Worthwile though for companies or people that really are unsure.

[Another Media]

SEO is a funny business and merchants and big players seem to join in because its what they are supposed to do - they have a marketing budget so it needs spending.

If I were them I would concentrate on making my service or products better, even remarkable. £9K is better spent on developing something new and unseen thats worth talking about - the effects of word of mouth, a personal recommendation from a family member or friend goes a lot further than a search engine recommendation. Take Alex Tew's MDH for example, it would have gotten nowhere without the first bunch of sneezers passing it on.

In terms of SEO companies a personal recommendation is also the best way to go. Or you could hire me

[jess1]

SEO is a funny business and merchants and big players seem to join in because its what they are supposed to do - they have a marketing budget so it needs spending.

Yeah I guess if it was their personal money or their personal business, caution and due diligence would be in order.

Like any service if I were a merchant and I was looking for a company to help me with SEO I would ask for at least 3 references to contact.

You mean the blind referring the blind,lol call me an old cynic
Black/grey hat has its place, as I understand it and I would ask what long term is in internet terms. Boom to doom to boom to....????
I am no SEO expert but the proof of a goodun has got to be in the ROI and the amount of resources available. Nahhhhhhh my advice, ignore the salesman and the client list and the clients and go underground. Some one give me Arcadias contact details, they really need my help,lol

[mibut]

if I don’t know how Search engines work and what it takes to get decent rankings, how can I post

I am no SEO expert

A little confusing.
Some nice rants but what is your actual point Jess.
You rant about SEO companies, the salesmen, the marketing teams end all.
Seems to me that you are saying that they are all bad and only you have the answers, even though as you say are not an SEO expert.

[KirstyM]

Some nice rants but what is your actual point Jess.
You rant about SEO companies, the salesmen, the marketing teams end all.
Seems to me that you are saying that they are all bad and only you have the answers, even though as you say are not an SEO expert.

I'm getting Jess' point loud and clear here, and I agree with it 1000%. I worked for a small SEO agency for 3 years, and we produced some blinding results for clients.

We frequently lost out on contracts to other companies who had provided SEO for big brand names. Marketing managers seem to often make decisions based on the fact someone did work for Sony (and who therefore charges exorbitant rates for work that isn't always up to scratch) rather than someone who demonstrates their techniques can provide merchant with a significant roi.

You don't need to be an seo expert to see the problem with that!

[jess1]

My point mibut, is that some merchants are not doing their due diligence and that some SEO companies are not black nor white and some actually do more damage then good. And I dont do SEO I do affiliate marketing, I dont see anywhere where it says I do SEO or at what level of expertise I have or where I say I have all the answers, although now you mention it I probably do have more answers then most

Kirsty: yes on eveything you say. And small, from my experience does not mean they are not the best ;0)

[mibut]

Kirsty,
[QUOTE][We frequently lost out on contracts /QUOTE]
Don't whinge, get better salespeople.
Jess.

Some one give me Arcadias contact details, they really need my help,lol

gives the impression that you are touting for business.
Most companies have not got a clue about marketing or advertising, that is why it is quite easy for a good salesperson to sell to them.
The operative word is sell.
People do not normally buy advertising etc, they are sold it.
The good saleperson knows this, the bad ones moan about not getting contracts.

[jess1]

Mibut its called tonge in cheek, try not to read too much into everything I post.

[drivetowin]

Most companies have not got a clue about marketing or advertising, that is why it is quite easy for a good salesperson to sell to them.

Mibut

Sadly in my experience companies lack of knowledge allows salespeople to lie to them.

[mibut]

Sadly in my experience companies lack of knowledge allows salespeople to lie to them.

In my experience it is the companies lack of knowledge that blames the salesperson.

[Brendon]

Kirsty, I'm with you and Jess here. I've worked for a mid sized SEO agency, and I've lost contracts we should have won to large, but not very good, agencies, and won contracts we didn't think we'd get from clients who turned out to have a clue about SEO (a rare breed, in my experience)

Mibut, I accept your point to an extent, but I have something else for you to consider. In the parallel world of advertising agencies, the big players are the big players for 3 reasons, essentially:

1) They have the best sales force, because they can afford to hire the best. Fair enough
2) They have the best ideas, and the best contacts, and produce the best results
3) They can communicate with big clients in the way that big clients want to be communicated with

Now, in the case of SEO, a good salesman is a good salesman. If you can sell snow to Eskimos, you can sell SEO to a corporate. Like I said, fair enough.

I can think of exactly 2 large SEO agencies that are actually worth what they charge. Most of the really good SEOs don't work for large agencies, they work for themselves, or a small group of select clients. Good SEOs are frequently terrible at selling, and hate having someone sell for them. This creates a problem

Most SEOs I know hate client communication with a fiery burning passion. Corporates demand constant hand-holding and reassurance. These 2 facts are often in conflict, and have more to do with corporate entities being incapable of hiring a decent SEO than any other single element, in my opinion

The thing is SEO is still very new. There are no professional qualifications, no standards, even basic metrics are hard to establish (I'd hasten to say that this usually comes down to the client not knowing how, and not trusting anyone elses numbers; understandable, but stupid).

Corporates don't have the flexibility to work with SEOs in many cases anyway. If a site needs changing, it needs to happen now, not in 3+ months. It makes me weep to see multi million £ web / SEO decisions made by people who are only just competent to run a pocket calculator

>> In my experience it is the companies lack of knowledge that blames the salesperson

LOL, yes, but if you go into a meeting with a sales type for a service where you have no knowledge whatsoever, surely you are expecting to be lied to? Theres no regulatory body for SEO, so no sanctions can be applied for "mis-selling" - yet. In a Parliament or two's time, look out for legislation....

[mibut]

Before taking this up full time (3 weeks off 2years ) my job was in sales and training salespeople, previous to that direct sales.
The hardest type of sales, coldcall telesales.
SALES, not making appointments.
Ringing companies and ad agencies and selling them something they had never heard of, never seen, never wanted and never budgeted for and at the end of that first sales call expecting the person on the other end to say yes and buy and fax back a signed order form.
No'one was ever lied to.The person on the other end of the phone might imagine that something was said or assume it, but if you actually recorded what has been said in the majority of cases you would find that the saleperson has not lied.
Now Jess and all are bemoaning the fact that company x has been sold "SEO" services by SEO salesperson, but has company x actually made any complaint?

[Brendon]

>> but has company x actually made any complaint?

Irrelevant. Since it's likely that good old hypothetical "Company X" couldn't tell good SEO from a cold portion of fish'n'chips, why would they complain? If the MD sees his companies site at #1 in Google for "left handed blue fuzzy widgets in Much-Incest-in-the-Marsh", he's going to be blinded by the #1 in G... and oblivious to the fact that it's a worthless listing.

He's been done, and doesn't know it. Maybe the sales guy didn't lie to him.... but he sure didn't give him a realistic appreciation of what he was buying, y'know?